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Old 12-18-2012, 10:51 PM   #101 (permalink)
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Just for the sake of any newbies reading through this thread, a high drive puppy can be trained utilizing positive training methods. An e-collar should be used when proofing your dog and not as a tool to save time and effort on the handler's part.
Saving time and effort? What an interesting way of characterizing what I have done.

How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?

Good luck.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:54 PM   #102 (permalink)
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leash?
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:15 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MarkJoel60 View Post
Saving time and effort? What an interesting way of characterizing what I have done.

How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?

Good luck.
Yes, a leash. I've curbed Grim's desire to chase cars significantly (being ill, I haven't worked with him on this since we moved), and I'm confident I can extinguish the behavior entirely. I've never used an e-collar on him. It's not a danger to his life, because he's always secured by a leash. No luck needed. Just time, dedication, and patience.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:24 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MarkJoel60 View Post
How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?

Good luck.
In 2003 I would have said you had to have the ecollar. In 2012 - I honestly think I could do that with positive only trainig methods but it would be a lot of work. Certainly with a young puppy. With an older dog with an established behavior it would be harder.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:48 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Without seeing the intensity at which the dog wanted to chase vehicles...I don't think any of us can say that positive only would have worked. I'll agree that the use of the ecollar more than likely saved the dogs life, but at the same time there seems to be such a need/want for people to have their dog off lead before the age of 6 months (not just referring to OP but many others that have joined the forum). Everyone watches videos of 3 year old Schutzhund dogs and thinks that their dog will be able to do that out of the womb.

I didn't let my dog off lead, other than in areas where I couldn't see a road (much less a car) for at least a mile, or in a fenced in area, for almost 2 years of his life. I live in a city, he's always on a 6 foot leash. I don't even own a retractable leash because I see no reason for my dog to be more than 6 feet away from me. Others don't look at it that way and the easiest and fastest way to teach a recall is by using an ecollar improperly (not saying that's what the OP did).

My dog has some crazy prey drive, and when he sees a bunny he looses his mind. It only took me 3 or 4 bunnies to stop this. And no, there was no ecollar involved, there was just a simple "NO!" and a redirection to a ball/toy that I had on me at the time.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:25 AM   #106 (permalink)
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Just like with any other thing the first thing you have to do is get the dog paying attention to you, flawlessly, in a low stim environment before moving to higher simulations.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:47 AM   #107 (permalink)
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leash?
This!
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:41 AM   #108 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MarkJoel60 View Post
Saving time and effort? What an interesting way of characterizing what I have done.

How about to save the dog's life? I'm thinking that an e-Collar is preferable to a dog chasing after a car. You think you can do that through purely positive training methods?

Good luck.
Oh...I dunno. I suspect if I knew my young puppy chased cars I'd keep it on a leash and begin training using a method I'd like to call responsibility.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:02 AM   #109 (permalink)
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I imagine the dog being on the leash is not the issue. I can see why the OP wants the control-what if he dropped the leash or the dog caught him off guard?

The OP is "sold" on the ecollar for this even though I am convinced you can do this without any form of compulsion because I work oflead cadaver dogs who have to be reliable in dangerous situations and around traffic, wildlife, and loose or chained dogs. With the package for a dog suitable for detection work comes a lot of prey drive.

I also had a behaviorist fix an over the top crate agitation issue with another dog, where none of the compuslion methods we tried worked but using simple praise and treats timed properly did. That one event is what really got me thiking about this. I spent two years of frustration with this dog. Had resorted to the bark collar when she approached me and said "can I show you something?".

But, rather than try to kill his approach I would at the very least suggest he have a heart to heart with Lou about how to proceed. I would be willing to put money on it that he would use a variant of his crittering protocol and at a low stim. Not a correction for starting the chase/ignoring a leave it command. I have done this with critters and the dog is clear headed and stops THEMSELVES before starting the chase sequence -- they don't need to be told "leave it" because they are thinking - and you can actually see THEM make the decision not to pursue..it takes you out of the picture which is, in fact, a benefit of the ecollar for certain things..

Still not admitting that the ecollar is "THE" only approach but if you are going to use one, do it properly and with clear guidance from a master with it.
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Old 12-19-2012, 10:11 AM   #110 (permalink)
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I imagine the dog being on the leash is not the issue. I can see why the OP wants the control-what if he dropped the leash or the dog caught him off guard?
Sounds like a personal problem...sorry I chuckled when I read this. How does a car surprise someone? If you're walking on a road, you should probably expect there might be a car coming every once in a while.

Anyways...I'm in agreement something had to be done about the dog chasing cars. I just dont agree with the method used. Life saving? Yes. Quickest way possible of doing it with no regard for the dog? Absolutely. It worked well, it worked fast, it was definitely due to punishment and not compulsion. The ecollar wasn't used to keep the dog's attention on the handler instead of reacting to the car (like is generally taught with reactive dogs). The ecollar was used to shut the dog down each time it reacted to a car until it finally realized that reacting to the car caused it to get zapped.

This is exactly how anyone in the "general public" that I have spoken to that has used a ecollar has trained their dog with it. It wasn't a correction, it was a punishment for an unwanted behavior (dog not coming when called). And now there is an infomercial on our forum for this type of training because someone that wasn't that experienced (and yet more experienced with dogs than I am) decided they've found the end all be all solution to all of life's training problems.

It is interesting to me that Lou hasn't chimed in on this yet...an ecollar thread that has gone 11 pages without one word from him. Either he's on vacation, busy, or for some reason not voicing his opinion (which I'd love to hear by the way). I do believe he'd go with a variation on the critter thing like jocoyn talked about.

Last edited by martemchik; 12-19-2012 at 10:14 AM.
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