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Old 12-17-2012, 10:05 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
Actually quite a few of the people you're referring to are NOT "positive only" trainers, and many of them have and do use e-collars. They just think there are more appropriate uses for the tool than the way you're using it.
I am one who uses a prong and has used an ecollar and don't have an issue with it used properly. Even had a testimonial up on Lou's site. But I want to continue to learn new thinngs and am learning much from "positive only" trainers!
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:06 PM   #92 (permalink)
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I've put a prong around my arm and gave it a pull...doesn't hurt as much as you'd think. It's just like a tight squeeze...more like an "Indian Burn" than anything. You're not supposed to give hard yanks with a prong collar, they're actually not necessary as very little pressure will get through to most dogs. This is why a prong collar is preferred to a choke these days, the correction is quicker, more exact, and doesn't have to be as hard in order for the dog to "get it."

I really don't want to argue, but that statement shows even more how your methods are very heavy handed. And no, I'm not a positive only trainer, my dog usually wears a prong or a choke in training depending on what I'm getting him ready for. I really wasn't trying to say anything about your training style...there are plenty of folks out there that think like you, and many more that are probably willing to go even farther than you. My only issue was that your advice shouldn't be given to novice handlers and inexperienced people. A first time dog owner has no idea what high drive, low drive, hard dog, soft dog, means. If they go from lab to GSD of course they'll think their dog is high drive and hard, and yet it might be exactly the opposite, but when they read such advice because a week of redirection doesn't work, they might just strap one on and start shocking instead of sticking with time tested methods that have worked for 99.99% of us.
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Old 12-17-2012, 10:53 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Really want to thank everyone for so many of the thoughtful and knowledgeable posts. Its amazing how much experience is reflected in these posts and I'm sure helping others if not the OP.

I used to not even know what positive training was and only knew how to train by setting up my pups to 'fail' because that way I could correct and give clear info to my dogs. I didn't know how to train by teaching them to do something right and reward, and teach that way. When someone tried to explain a clicker I thought that was the stupidist thing I ever heard, who goes thru life with a clicker? And besides'my voice is exactly the same (right?)

Well I was WRONG, and I am certainly into this dog training for long enough to know I can always learn more and am willing to do so if it benefits my dogs. I always do my best and think it's right at the time. But I now know though if what I am doing isn't clear to my pup, then I need to try something else. And teaching by correction is so low down in my methods I rarely go there. And the reason is because I know there are SMARTER ways to train and I am willing to find a good trainer to teach me.

Using corrections is easy. Teaching avoidance behaviors is easy. Ruining the lifetime relationship with training is easy too. I no longer look for the fast and easy way to train. I look for the smartest way to work WITH my dog to go thru our lives together.

And I love and train with both the e-collars AND prong collars with help from trusted and qualified instructors, with a clicker and treat bag also in my bag of training 'tricks'.

And it really can work, really :-)

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Old 12-18-2012, 07:39 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
...are you doing anything to work his brain besides having him find things in a park? Teach him rear end awareness, back ups(when in a down too), side passes, 'place', directionals, track him?
OK, that's a new one to me: "Rear End Awareness". I haven't done any of that, I confess. (I'll have to google that...)

Mostly I have done basic obedience with him, and we play.
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:55 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJoel60 View Post
As far as all of those who say: "Well, I have had dogs with high drive before, and I never needed an e-collar." This is snobbish at best and ignorant at worst. The e-collar doesn't have to be an admission that I failed as a trainer and a line of last resort. It is simply another tool. Is using a "gentle leader" harness a failure on the part of the owner? Or a prong collar?
Just for the sake of any newbies reading through this thread, a high drive puppy can be trained utilizing positive training methods. An e-collar should be used when proofing your dog and not as a tool to save time and effort on the handler's part.
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Last edited by Cassidy's Mom; 12-18-2012 at 12:13 PM. Reason: Fix quote
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:16 AM   #96 (permalink)
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I am not a purely positive trainer and have no problem saying so

I don't think I'm a snob nor ignorant when I say I've had/have some pretty high energy dogs that I didn't use an e collar on and they've turned out pretty well if I do say so myself

I train with what works for the specific dog. I don't recall anyone posting you (OP) were a failure at training, I think there have been alot of thought out posts here with opinions (which we are all entitled to).

Because one doesn't like one's opinion is no need to get in a snit .

Just wanted to throw that out there
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:03 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Quote:
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I am not a purely positive trainer and have no problem saying so
I bet my daughter wishes I was a purely positive trainer!!!!
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:14 PM   #98 (permalink)
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Lilie, I hope you don't mind that I fixed your quote in the post above!
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:18 PM   #99 (permalink)
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We bring down Chris Weeks* a few times a year for brush up stuff and when I was talking with him about Beau and "routienes" he was big on "muscle memory" - making whatever you do so ingrained they are on autopilot for the important things and it is the only response. I don't know a single detection dog trained in that discipline with anything but motivational training and you have to have proven reliability to stand up in court.

I honestly believe the important thing abuot any method is consistency and repetition. We were offlead in the woods at 10 weeks because I knew his puppy packdrive would hold him close. As I saw the boldness develop to explore I started running from him and hiding. As he continued to get bolder for awhile he was on a long line until I was confident in that recall. You know don't give them a chance to find out how fun it is to fail until there mind is at a place that the idea does not entertain them.

The car thing. I would not walk the dog around moving cars until I fixed the problem. Maybe I would go to a big field and do obedience etc at a distance where the dog (on lead) ignored them and then slowly close the gap--well that is what I would try based on my experineces with a different fear reactive dog (I realize it is prey not fear in this case but....it is desensitizing a trigger)--just an idea. It is consistent as well with how Lou worked on crittering by slowly closing a gap.

**Chris was trained at Lackland as a bomb dog handler and then went to work for Raleigh PD when he got out of the service, then a New Hampshire PD. He works with a lot of SAR folks as well as training department dogs/handlers.
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Last edited by jocoyn; 12-18-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 12-18-2012, 12:21 PM   #100 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassidy's Mom View Post
Lilie, I hope you don't mind that I fixed your quote in the post above!
Oh hec no! Multi tasking isn't my best suit!
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