Agression problem between two brothers - Page 2

shadow79 · 12-04-2012, 02:50 PM

in about a year or so one will be moving out with me, the other will be staying in my parents house. i bought a house but now were doing all the renovations and until it is livable they both will be living with us in 1 house. Shadow is my dog and Guiness is my dads. The pit mix isnt a problem at all, hes a VERY mellow dog and they both dont bother him, he doesnt get involved in the fights either. were trying to figure something out for the time being and giving one away is not an answer due to the fact they will be seperated within a year.

kiya · 12-04-2012, 03:03 PM

Keeping them separated is the safest solution, you never know when somebody will get a bug up their butt and start a fight. I'd avoid the vet bill or worse. Good luck.

Mooch · 12-05-2012, 06:02 AM

Perhaps look at neutering them - their hormones will be kicking in right about now too which will make things even "tenser" between the 2 boys

Marc · 12-05-2012, 06:18 AM

this maybe completely wrong, and I am not offering advice, just a suggestion.... maybe even a question for more experienced handlers but....

I know this may sound a bit draconian, but, dogs are pack animals, that survive in a hierarchy, thinking of wolves now, wolves will have a strict hierarchy, with the alpha male dictating the roles of the other dogs. Would it not make sense to create a situation, where one of the dogs is submissive to the other, for example, making one of the dogs regularly winning each confrontation, and in turn they are both submissive to you? in the wild, the dogs would settle thier differences quickly and the submissive one would learn his place, is this also not possible in the home? I know this sounds outdated and possibly even a little cruel on one of the dogs, but I think if it works, is it not better than rehoming one of the dogs?

dogs that grow up with their sire, tend to have a good relationship, because in my view, the puppy learns fast that "Daddy" is the boss, and does not try to challenge him, on the rare occasion a challenge does occur, then a rehoming may be in order, OR the sire may submit to the younger dog.

Im not a behaviourist, nor do I advocate anything in this post, but it makes sense to me, would love to hear some proffesional thoughts on this idea.

**gagsd** · 12-05-2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc

this maybe completely wrong, and I am not offering advice, just a suggestion.... maybe even a question for more experienced handlers but....

I know this may sound a bit draconian, but, dogs are pack animals, that survive in a hierarchy, thinking of wolves now, wolves will have a strict hierarchy, with the alpha male dictating the roles of the other dogs. Would it not make sense to create a situation, where one of the dogs is submissive to the other, for example, making one of the dogs regularly winning each confrontation, and in turn they are both submissive to you? in the wild, the dogs would settle thier differences quickly and the submissive one would learn his place, is this also not possible in the home? I know this sounds outdated and possibly even a little cruel on one of the dogs, but I think if it works, is it not better than rehoming one of the dogs?

dogs that grow up with their sire, tend to have a good relationship, because in my view, the puppy learns fast that "Daddy" is the boss, and does not try to challenge him, on the rare occasion a challenge does occur, then a rehoming may be in order, OR the sire may submit to the younger dog.

Im not a behaviourist, nor do I advocate anything in this post, but it makes sense to me, would love to hear some proffesional thoughts on this idea.

To be "natural" one of the males would be killed or driven away in all likely hood.

carmspack · 12-05-2012, 09:57 AM

in about a year or so one will be moving out with me, the other will be staying in my parents house
the fact they will be seperated within a year.

This is what you said , so please listen . Getting two was a bad idea . The breeder , I feel, took the easy way - yeah ! less effort to find homes . Neither party , yourself or your parents were truly ready to bring in two pups.
These pups are in a very demanding high hands-on stage in their development . They need to be raised by you , not by each other . NEITHER one will become the dog that he could have been . You can't put behavioural growth on hold , warehouse it till you are ready . The behaviour and interaction is dynamic and will make lasting impressions , change the dogs . I would say let the one you are taking go to a new home because you won't be ready for a year . House renovations done on time. HAHAHA - we did 5 houses - I don't recall things ever going smoothly , on time - always something .Your time and efforts are directed to the house . I cannot imagine any free time to train and bond with a young dog that needs these things - now - .
The other thing is the pitbull is a senior who deserves some peace and quiet. Although he may be a mellow dog , dynamics are still pack - when your two males get in to it , it is exciting -- just like a school yard duke-out when all of a sudden kids come "out of the woodwork" to look on , take a jab themselves, and egg them on. Pit may just be a spectator but the two gnashing young dogs , in their irritation , may lash out on him (unintentionally through excitement when brains are left behind) .

That would be a better situation. Enjoy the dog that will be staying behind. When you are settled in to your house , which may be two years away -- then - find yourself your personal dog.
just saying

arby665 · 12-05-2012, 10:34 AM

I sure wish I would have known about this Littermate Syndrome a long time ago! When I first moved out on my own I got 2 Akitas. They were both male and littermates. I can't even begin to describe the nightmare that turned into. We were never able to get them trained to do anything and they acted like they were completely nuts. After about 2 years my oldest daughter came along and the dogs ended up with an Akita rescue. That whole experience really turned me off on the breed. Now I know it probably wasn't so much the breed as it was the circumstance.

shepherdmom · 12-05-2012, 11:32 AM

I really really don't understand everyones freakout over two dogs from the same littler. I sucessfully raised two males. They lived peacefully for 9 years until my Shadow passed away from DM and yes I know I was lucky but I've had friends and family that have been just as successful.

I don't know if this will help you at all but I made sure my two never ate near each other, they had bowls of food in different rooms. One was neutered young the other got to wait until he was older. I don't know if by doing this we unintentionally did what Marc was talking about, but it never seemed like one was dominate over the other. Both were given a lot of exercise and attention and maybe they were just too tired to fight. We also had a little female Aussie who was very dominate and seemed to keep both boys in line.

All the dogs did a lot of 4-H obedience training with the kids. I also ran a Girl Scout troop, we did a bunch of camping and other stuff and there were always kids in and out paying lots attention to all of the dogs.

Anyway many will be glad to tell you how wrong I am, how lucky I was.. but I just wanted to share a success story with you.

Good luck. I hope it all works out!

wolfy dog · 12-05-2012, 02:45 PM

It will for sure be a nightmare if they are similar in energy and rank, which is hard to determine when they are these cute little fur balls in the litter. You may have a better chance if both pups are at the opposite end of the hierarchy spectrum; so one assertive and the other one soft.
Was this your combination Shepherdmom?

shepherdmom · 12-06-2012, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfy dog

It will for sure be a nightmare if they are similar in energy and rank, which is hard to determine when they are these cute little fur balls in the litter. You may have a better chance if both pups are at the opposite end of the hierarchy spectrum; so one assertive and the other one soft.
Was this your combination Shepherdmom?

Neither one was really assertive. They were both really laid back good with people and other dogs..happy to let the little Aussie female we had rule the roost. The one who we didn't neuter right away was a little more assertive but neither one really seemed to care. Now both could sound loud and scary if the wrong person tried coming in the yard but for the most part they were both just big babies.

It's interesting after Shadow passed we got a little lab mix and Buddy was happy to go into the same share/share role with him but we recently picked up another rescue GSD, a female and now Buddy is all about being the regal aloof older gentleman with her. It's kind of funny to watch.

12-04-2012, 03:03 PM	#12 (permalink)
kiya Knighted Member Join Date: May 2010 Location: Long Island Posts: 2,873	Keeping them separated is the safest solution, you never know when somebody will get a bug up their butt and start a fight. I'd avoid the vet bill or worse. Good luck. __________________ Carolyn Apache - Shiloh Shepherd 12/15/02 Kiya - Shiloh Shepherd 5/15/04 Lakota - WGSD 1/13/10

12-05-2012, 06:18 AM	#14 (permalink)
Marc Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 57	this maybe completely wrong, and I am not offering advice, just a suggestion.... maybe even a question for more experienced handlers but.... I know this may sound a bit draconian, but, dogs are pack animals, that survive in a hierarchy, thinking of wolves now, wolves will have a strict hierarchy, with the alpha male dictating the roles of the other dogs. Would it not make sense to create a situation, where one of the dogs is submissive to the other, for example, making one of the dogs regularly winning each confrontation, and in turn they are both submissive to you? in the wild, the dogs would settle thier differences quickly and the submissive one would learn his place, is this also not possible in the home? I know this sounds outdated and possibly even a little cruel on one of the dogs, but I think if it works, is it not better than rehoming one of the dogs? dogs that grow up with their sire, tend to have a good relationship, because in my view, the puppy learns fast that "Daddy" is the boss, and does not try to challenge him, on the rare occasion a challenge does occur, then a rehoming may be in order, OR the sire may submit to the younger dog. Im not a behaviourist, nor do I advocate anything in this post, but it makes sense to me, would love to hear some proffesional thoughts on this idea. __________________ Maya, GSD Bitch, Born 30/08/2012..... complete lapdog. Last edited by Marc; 12-05-2012 at 06:22 AM.

12-05-2012, 10:34 AM	#17 (permalink)
arby665 Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Huntsville, AL Posts: 91	I sure wish I would have known about this Littermate Syndrome a long time ago! When I first moved out on my own I got 2 Akitas. They were both male and littermates. I can't even begin to describe the nightmare that turned into. We were never able to get them trained to do anything and they acted like they were completely nuts. After about 2 years my oldest daughter came along and the dogs ended up with an Akita rescue. That whole experience really turned me off on the breed. Now I know it probably wasn't so much the breed as it was the circumstance. __________________ Jenny Karly - GSD 10/16/12 Tia - Pig/Twinkie (mixed rescue) Cats - Cricket, Mickey, Spartacus, Tiger, Josie, Ashton, Lily, Drake, Cooper & Tucker

12-05-2012, 02:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
wolfy dog Elite Member Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,320	It will for sure be a nightmare if they are similar in energy and rank, which is hard to determine when they are these cute little fur balls in the litter. You may have a better chance if both pups are at the opposite end of the hierarchy spectrum; so one assertive and the other one soft. Was this your combination Shepherdmom? __________________ To know if you are doing things right, you should be willing to trade places with your dog.

12-04-2012, 02:50 PM	#11 (permalink)
shadow79 New Member Join Date: Dec 2012 Posts: 5	in about a year or so one will be moving out with me, the other will be staying in my parents house. i bought a house but now were doing all the renovations and until it is livable they both will be living with us in 1 house. Shadow is my dog and Guiness is my dads. The pit mix isnt a problem at all, hes a VERY mellow dog and they both dont bother him, he doesnt get involved in the fights either. were trying to figure something out for the time being and giving one away is not an answer due to the fact they will be seperated within a year.

12-05-2012, 06:02 AM	#13 (permalink)
Mooch Master Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Australia Posts: 869	Perhaps look at neutering them - their hormones will be kicking in right about now too which will make things even "tenser" between the 2 boys

12-05-2012, 09:57 AM	#16 (permalink)
carmspack Crowned Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: ontario - Posts: 5,552	in about a year or so one will be moving out with me, the other will be staying in my parents house the fact they will be seperated within a year. This is what you said , so please listen . Getting two was a bad idea . The breeder , I feel, took the easy way - yeah ! less effort to find homes . Neither party , yourself or your parents were truly ready to bring in two pups. These pups are in a very demanding high hands-on stage in their development . They need to be raised by you , not by each other . NEITHER one will become the dog that he could have been . You can't put behavioural growth on hold , warehouse it till you are ready . The behaviour and interaction is dynamic and will make lasting impressions , change the dogs . I would say let the one you are taking go to a new home because you won't be ready for a year . House renovations done on time. HAHAHA - we did 5 houses - I don't recall things ever going smoothly , on time - always something .Your time and efforts are directed to the house . I cannot imagine any free time to train and bond with a young dog that needs these things - now - . The other thing is the pitbull is a senior who deserves some peace and quiet. Although he may be a mellow dog , dynamics are still pack - when your two males get in to it , it is exciting -- just like a school yard duke-out when all of a sudden kids come "out of the woodwork" to look on , take a jab themselves, and egg them on. Pit may just be a spectator but the two gnashing young dogs , in their irritation , may lash out on him (unintentionally through excitement when brains are left behind) . That would be a better situation. Enjoy the dog that will be staying behind. When you are settled in to your house , which may be two years away -- then - find yourself your personal dog. just saying

12-05-2012, 11:32 AM	#18 (permalink)
shepherdmom Knighted Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Northern Nevada Posts: 2,324	I really really don't understand everyones freakout over two dogs from the same littler. I sucessfully raised two males. They lived peacefully for 9 years until my Shadow passed away from DM and yes I know I was lucky but I've had friends and family that have been just as successful. I don't know if this will help you at all but I made sure my two never ate near each other, they had bowls of food in different rooms. One was neutered young the other got to wait until he was older. I don't know if by doing this we unintentionally did what Marc was talking about, but it never seemed like one was dominate over the other. Both were given a lot of exercise and attention and maybe they were just too tired to fight. We also had a little female Aussie who was very dominate and seemed to keep both boys in line. All the dogs did a lot of 4-H obedience training with the kids. I also ran a Girl Scout troop, we did a bunch of camping and other stuff and there were always kids in and out paying lots attention to all of the dogs. Anyway many will be glad to tell you how wrong I am, how lucky I was.. but I just wanted to share a success story with you. Good luck. I hope it all works out!

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