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I'm so ticked of right now!!

19K views 190 replies 53 participants last post by  gaia_bear 
#1 ·
Bubbles biting problem hasn't stopped no matter any method I've used. Sometimes when I have to get something dangerous out of her mouth. I offer a treat if she drops it. if she doesn't drop it I got to get it out of her mouth. When I try to get it out she growls snaps barks bites pins her ears back at me. this is how she acts even when she is trying to bite my hands. I have so many scars. instead of calling it quits on bubbles . I've taken her to training and made sure she was healthy. I'm not mad at the dog.

The thing is I asked the vet at pet smart to see if she is having mental problems or having medical issues. I asked for blood work and to be evaluated mentally. Little to say they didn't do what I asked. They said to take her to training. ugh.. she is in training!. Then they said get an at home trainer. So I asked for a recommendation. they told me to look on the internet. I was very pissed by this. how could a vet not give me recommendations!!! I am willing to put the money and time into bubbles BC other then the biting she is very sweet especially with kids, and other animals. She only bites me . I'm sorry for complaining. I asked for help and good vet care for bubbles. Its not bubbles fault I'm trying so hard . I'm getting tired of trainers and vets not doing their jobs. :( I'm tired of not getting the help me and bubbles desperately need. I can't ignore the biting and aggression just BC she is a puppy. I want to nip it in the butt now so it doesn't develop into anything worse. Arizona sucks on German Shepherd behaviorist trainers. I don't know if its worth going out of state for a good trainer.

rant over I'm so frustrated.
 
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#123 · (Edited)
Well, at least 120 years of GSD experience from multiple folks agreed with Kyleigh's post and I do think it was written very clearly taking into account the posts by the OP. I am sorry she did not take it that way.

Given the OP's physical limitations.... As much as I love the breed and have owned them for many years, my husband and I hit the realization that at some point we may not be able to deal with the physical aspects of raising a GSD puppy and will look at rescuing older adults. That may be what the OP needs to look at or cats or another breed. As the pup matures the dog park may not become a viable outlet for her energy as GSDs sometimes grow into dogs that are not really for dog parks. What are the options to ensure the pup gets adequate excercise but is not overstimulated?

FWIW, what the puppy is doing is in no way related to handler agression..but very normal puppy behavior that has not been nipped in the bud with a consistent and appropriate approach. And it takes TIME to see the light at the end of the tunnel with these pups.

The harness doesn't make any sense at all. Prongs or chokes do not make agressive dogs. Genetics and mishandling do. It is not the tools but the person using them. And the pup does not sound agressive.
 
#126 ·
Some folks have gotten frustrated ...... and have made some snarky statements (which given your statement that you loose your temper, you should understand) but nobody here is a troll. Lets not go there. Folks have sincerely tried to help.

It seems to me that enough has been said. ..............
 
#128 ·
From what I can see you are so focused on correction and teaching your dog what NOT to do that I don't believe you have offered instruction in what you want the dog TO do. This is a typical problem, the mouthing, and a typical response from a novice owner who hasn't gotten help from a good trainer. I see this all the time with jumping up on people too. The typical novice owner wants to correct away from the problem while not teaching appropriate greeting behavior.

Result?

The dog has NO IDEA WHAT TO DO!

You have to teach the dog an appropriate replacement behavior. Mouthing, jumping up... these are instinctive behaviors which will not extinguish just from correction because the dog has a need which is fulfilled by them. Or if you do correct away (typically using harsh methods) the need will be redirected into even more inappropriate behavior. So you have to teach an alternative behavior which also fulfills that need/instinct. Something positive for the dog to do instead. When you meet with a trainer you want to be sure they address this.

Ways to train and tire a dog when you have limited mobility- I mentioned this earlier but you ignored it.

Target Stick Basics

Clik Stik Retractable Target Stick with Clicker - Dog Training Supply

Amazon.com: Susan Garrett's Crate Games for Self-Control and Motivation: Susan Garrett: Movies & TV
 
#131 ·
From what I can see you are so focused on correction and teaching your dog what NOT to do that I don't believe you have offered instruction in what you want the dog TO do.
This is so true - it pretty well sums up any training I've ever done with my dogs. I'm not going to be able to help you with keeping Bubbles from biting you, since I encourage this behavior. But keep in mind that she's not 'biting' you: what she's doing is 'mouthing' and she's like every other GSD puppy out there - they call them "landsharks" for a reason, lol. She wants to play with you and this is how they initiate it.

Human babies put everything in their mouths too, to explore. It's so normal and to be expected from puppies as well. It's too bad that their teeth are so sharp, but it's also a good thing, because when they bite too hard with each other they learn not to use so much pressure because whichever one gets the bite will yelp, or even stop playing. They learn not to bite so hard this way, because they want to play all day - until they're too tired to keep it up anymore.

When I teach my puppy not to bite hard, I stop playing just before it hurts too much. The worst thing, IMO, is when you grab their muzzles when they bite, because this is just too rough. It'll escalate the intensity, which is the exact opposite of what I'm trying to teach. I don't want the game to get rougher, I want it to get gentler. So this is probably why Bubbles is getting you so frustrated since she's probably getting way too rough and you think she's being aggressive, but she's just playing the game you taught her by mistake.

What toys are you using to redirect her mouthing? This is the only thing that worked for DH, because he doesn't agree with me and wouldn't let my puppy mouth him. He tried holding his muzzle, because that worked for him with different breeds (lol) but he found out the hard way that my puppy liked that even more, and came back at him twice as hard. I told him not to do that, to shove toys in his mouth, but not let go of the toy - keep him engaged in a chewy fun game. It's not like putting a pacifier in a baby's mouth because a puppy won't be satisfied with just a plug, they want games. Lots of playing, lots of games, lots of chewing.

When my puppy wasn't playing chewing games with us, he chewed on bones. When he wasn't chewing, he was sleeping. LOL, but I'm not kidding.
Does Bubbles have any bones that she can chew when she needs to? Part of the problem is that they're teething, so they want something to chew on, so you need to give them something: bones, kongs, rope toys, whatever she'll enjoy.
 
#130 · (Edited)
This is a good article concerning "dominant" dogs. And Bubbles is not sounding like that at all The target audience is the typical macho man police officer -- you know the ones who show off their scars from dog bites. The one who has an intact male patrol dog bred for police service.

Note how the very strong macho police trainer recommends not turning it into a power struggle but doing things like controlling resources.

I have been told (by 3 police master trainers) my pup is a strong dog and I have seen some signs that, improperly managed, he would be capable of going up the lead. For every hour of scentwork training we spend I probably put in two hours on obedience because he needs it. I control a lot of things with his life. He must down before eating. Down and stay in his crate when I open the door etc etc etc. All trained motivationally. FINALLY mastering loose leash casual walking on a flat collar using tried and true "be a tree" methods at 17 months old [we passed an offlead formal obedience routine at 15 months but everyday life is in some respects harder] - 17 months old, not 5 months. At 5 months he was a total hellion. I also provide plenty of excercise. Structured. I control.

This link is a PDF you would have to download. Good article if you think you have a "dominant" dog or an agressive dog. Mainly because I think it is good all the way around.........

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tarheelcanine.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2011%2F10%2FJerry-BradshawV4I2.pdf&ei=Oma_UPXZMYiC8ATN3YDoBw&usg=AFQjCNEY97XKODzb1PWyL0GMjRtio6TQlA&sig2=8HwAIn-dUXIxaBOSzxueIw
 
#132 ·
One of things I failed to mention about Kaylee is her excessive mouthy behavior. She is the mouthiest dog I have ever had. She is not the first GSD we have had either. Since she was a landshark one of the things I made sure to do is figure out games that involve a lot of biting and mouth work. Rather than punish/correct the unwanted behavior we turned it into a good behavior where Kaylee can bite the crap out of something other than her human pack members, lol.

I did a lot of trial and error to see what motivated her to play. Keep in mind I am 100% capable of doing any kind of physical activity, but my mother is not. She has serious back, hip, and other medical issues that do not allow her to walk far. So the serious play/work games I do and my mother can do fetch and retrieve type games which allows her to sit in the chair. We figured out Kaylee is a ball nut. We went out and got 20 different balls for fetch games. They were different colors and textures to keep it interesting. Then I have my soccer balls (8 of them) I used for the intense games.

Even though we had taught her how to play and what the rules were she STILL would insist on constantly testing and biting and was a relentless brat from 5 months until she was near 7 months old. Keep in mind we had an arsenal of chew toys too. I would take specific bones fill it will peanut butter and put those in the freezer along with other frozen treats to help with the teething process.

Her bad behavior was only displayed here at home and would escalate when she was off lead. So from 5 months on I kept her on a chain lead (short one) to keep my hands off the collar when she would start in. I can grab the lead make a quick firm tug correction and if she refused to stop or be redirected then she was taken out of the environment and put in her crate for 5-10 minutes to calm down. I did not freak out, yell, or show any emotion during the correction or placing her in her crate. If I was frustrated I would walk away and let the dog be because the emotions you project the dog will pick up on it.

Some times this can be extremely hard to do when the pup is biting and you have gone through all of the tools to redirect them yet it does not work. I have had my moments of extreme frustration. Then it is time to place them in a calm quiet place which was Kaylee's crate. The crate was a happy place filled with special crate only toys. I found removing myself from the situation and doing this worked 80% of the time. Putting her on a lead at all times worked 100% to keep me from getting bit.

What I found that I was doing wrong was miss reading Kaylee's greeting behaviors. This is where the rank drive comes in. Using the techniques and rank drive I noticed a big difference. Keep in mind she is trained. She knows basic OB and passed her OB class. Leadership & waiting exercises were consistent along with her basic OB training that was done with me.

Kaylee also knew bite inhibition. When she became demanding to play or seek attention this went out the window and the biting, jumping, lunging was extremely hard and relentless at times. Kaylee was good 90% of the time, but still had her bad relentless biting moments and was a bratty pest who became Cujo when she wanted to get her way.

What I discovered other family members were not being consistent and were breaking the rules and this caused confusion in the dog. So I made it clear certain people were not allowed to have contact with her and all of the training was done only by me. I decided to use the rank drive and now I have a dog who understands her place and is not confused. She no longer bites to get her way or tests the rules unlike before.

I now have an 8 month old who is dedicated to me. The foundation is the most important thing to have and it must be solid. Before I could not play tug games with her because she would go for the hands or the body not the toy. She would not listen to commands during a tug game. One of my favorite things to do is play tug games with my dogs. Since laying down the rank drive after the first three weeks I tested her to see what would happen during a tug game. She listened to the commands and went for the toy. That is when I knew it worked and we are on the right track.

Honestly all the time and work I have put in with her has been worth it and I have a much happier dog. I think once the owner figures out what works in time things will improve you just have to push through it and be consistent. Things will get better once you figure it out.
 
#134 ·
It would be hard for the average man, let alone most average women to "win" a physical battle with an 80lb GSD intent on winning. I certainly recall a story where it took a gun to end the fight.

Even the police I train with....its all about building a solid relationship with the dog and more and more I see they argue that getting into a fight or forcing the dog to submit as a way of training is not necessarily the best way. There are other ways to build respect with a dog with bone crushing jaws. Obviously they can't back down if it winds up that way but why take it to that point? [the article I posted from Police K9 Magazine is very much in line with what I have been observing]

I went to a field lab person for help and she was all about compulsion. I went to a police master trainer and he was all about being smarter than the dog and using motivation and reward. She works with labs who are just goofy and don't pull a lot of rank issues. He works with very focused GSDs and Malinois with a lot of REAL fight drive.

I walked away the day the lab trainer took Beau and cranked down on his prong for a minor infraction. He was only a 9 mo old puppy and he growled at her and she corrected the growling but did not take it further - it was too much for him at that age - a little older and I think he may have gone up the lead at her - I learned after that with the police that there is a certain amount of finesse required for a good prong correction because a really strong one can escalate, not subdue fight drive in the right dog - just as a strong ecollar correction can result in redirection of the worst kind.

What works, works! Good training results in a partnership and not a master/slave relationship I think. Pretty important I would say when those officers' lives may depend on their dog.
 
#136 ·
until you have seen a dog fighting for it's life we really don't know our animals!
Don't forget that our dogs often go into "fear" mode and to them, every "fight", is a fight for it's life.
Even bathing. I've observed this so many times in rescue; dogs come here who've lived their entire lives outdoors and it's obvious have never been bathed.

You cannot, ever, physically overpower a dog, well, you might at some point be able to but you're going to get severely injured in the process.

My 11lb. Dachshund, muzzled for nail clipping due to his unnatural terror at having his nails done (was probably quicked in the past), can scrape the living daylights out of my husband's arm with his nails and the muzzle.
People think a muzzled dog can't hurt you!? OH they can hurt you alright! They still hit with their muzzles and try to bite!

The key is to earn your dog's trust and build that relationship so they never "go nuts" on you.
I don't sit around contemplating if we can overpower our dogs...I have no reason to fear them or they'd never be in my house!

MIND GAMES Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong is a beautiful, simple way of life that enforces that you are the leader and the dog is the follower.
It works for us :)
 
#137 ·
The mind games stuff is very consistent with the police article I think and with every direction we have been taking. I like the checklist. Makes it simple.
 
#138 · (Edited)
You cannot, ever, physically overpower a dog, well, you might at some point be able to but you're going to get severely injured in the process.
I agree with this 100% ... and most people do realize ... your full grown adult GSD will be practically impossible to physically overpower IF you ever had to - for whatever reason.


I see one sentence in my post was taken out of context by some. When I said it would be a war and the dog will win.

From the OPs posts, she's already in a "war" with her puppy, and she is losing ... which is why she posted on here for help. I didn't mean it in a dominance / submissive way, or an alpha way or anything ... maybe I should have used "battle / fights / scraps" or something else.

What I was trying to say was that she is "losing" whatever it is she is trying to do with her puppy regarding biting while the pup is teething, and going through the "landshark" phase.

My comment ... "you won't win" stands, especially if she can't get control of it NOW while the pup is young. I'm not saying her dog will attack her, but I am saying that if she thinks she CAN physically over power her puppy as he grows up ... she won't be able to.

Thanks everyone for the positive comments on my post. In all fairness, I do hope people saw my sentence that read ... credit to the original posters of the ideas (or something like that). I felt bad for the OP because she sounds like she's young and in over her head ... a hard place to be with a demanding / hyper puppy. I read the whole thread a number of times and tried to consolidate everyones ideas into one post. It took me almost an hour to write the post, and I didn't want to go back and start "quoting" every single comment.

So a big thanks to those that contributed "first!"
 
#139 ·
Originally Posted by Marc
Totally agree, and my post was not to inspire dominance through aggression, merely stating that I personally would not feel confortable owning a dog that I could not physically overpower.
I was replying to Marc...(since you used a quote out of my post)
 
#141 ·
Of course, with some dogs, if you show them that you are physically superior when they are a little puppy (which generally is the case); then they will remember thios for their entire lives.

Some dogs, of course will not remember that you are superior phsyically or will actually "challenge" you for it as they mature (sort of similar to a young dog growing up and challenging the pack leader).

Those are the only dogs that you have to convince them that you are the alpha being regardless of physical ability.

BTW, there a few dogs that I can even at my age physically overpower! (But not the size/disposition of my GSD!!!!!!!!!)
 
#144 ·
I think the thing that is so frustrating is that the OP thinks she has some kind of mutant terroristic dog .......and it sounds like a perfectly normal GSD puppy. Hopefully its temperament will be strong enough to endure whatever she puts it through.
 
#145 ·
That thought at the back of my mind is kind of like a precaution, its not a fear of my dog, more a state of readiness, and preparation of worst case scenario.
It's just never been a concern to me...I mean I've never even thought about it.
My dogs are 100% trustworthy, none of them go bonkers ever for any reason, so it's never crossed my mind.

That said, I have heard of situations where people are killed by other animals not their own, or even their own. Is that what has got you thinking about it?
 
#148 ·
I have found this thread helpful. I think I have been letting my pup run a bit wild, so after reading some of the ideas I have cracked down a bit. I have him back on a lead in the house, and I am making sure to spend much more time just working on his basic house manners. Thanks everybody!
 
#153 ·
Good for you! Even though it may not seem all that necessary when your puppy is young, that is exactly the most important time to begin the foundation of shaping behavior and teaching manners, including impulse control, attention, and engagement. It's more about establishing a relationship than training specific obedience commands, but the more work you put in on that foundation now, the easier everything else will be later because you'll have a framework in place to build upon.
 
#149 ·
Marc, I kinda know where you're coming from.

Ever since I saw that bit in Tales from the Crypt where they lock the Major in a narrow maze of hallways, starve his dog (a Malinois) for days, and then turn his dog loose in the maze on him...I've always had the TINIEST bit of curiosity over whether or not I could take my dog in a fight. Not that I think it will ever happen, but thanks to a bunch of British horror movie makers, the thought is there.
 
#152 ·
I wont go into that because I dont want to cause panic, and again, that was not the reason for my thinking, but if anyone is interested I just googled it.
I think this is a topic for another thread...
I believe the deaths due to dogs are a case of owners not understanding their dogs.
Then again this may fit right into this thread!!

Dog are animals. When people treat them as if they are thinking/rational human beings that's a problem. Dogs have no moral standards (of course the dog should KNOW it a baby and helpless) and are, to the most extent, instinct driven.

Humans create the problems dogs have, unless you have a very rare unsound dog that even with the best handling, will remain unsound.
Again, this thread is a very good example.
 
#154 ·
If anyone cares to know the behaviorist found bubbles to be aggresive. Even though no one believes me. i don't care and I thought I would update those who actually care about the things I have actually said. The reason for the aggresion is because bubbles thinks she is above me and that im to soft and timid with her.

Most of the trainers use a shock collar and they want to use a shock collar on her. I am having doubts about the shock collar training. I wish people would actually give me help dealing with an aggresive puppy and not just making fun of me.
 
#155 ·
Find a new behaviorist.
No good behaviorist would blame the dog "thinks it's alpha".

Bubbles. I know you can't stand me. BUT in another thread, MIND GAMES was recommended - and it's WORKING.
Mind Games (version 1.0) by M. Shirley Chong

Within days.
Do every single thing on the above check-list (at the link) for one entire week solid then come tell us the dog "thinks she is above me" and "I'm too soft/timid with her".

I challenge you!
 
#156 ·
I never give bubbles anything for free. I make her sit or laydown for stuff she wants.

I bought her a new dog bed she slept on for one night. I went in to take her out to go potty. She was not on her bed . I went to go touch her bed and she started growling barking and snapping at me. :(

I love bubbles . She has no medical issues. I'm so tired of trainers and people from this website. All I wanted was help with the issue i have said and I'm not getting it from anyone. Im tired of people telling me to get a new vet, a new trainer, a new behaviorist . They can all shove it . I have to do something myself. I don't know what but I'll find something.
 
#158 · (Edited by Moderator)
So are you saying you will not implement these things??

Mind Game #1: No More Kibble From Heaven!

Free feeding is the equivalent of kibble from heaven--some dogs seem to imagine that they own their bowl and that the food appears whenever they want it.

Feed your adult dog twice a day (puppies may need 2-6 meals per day depending on age and health status). Before you put the bowl down, have your dog do a sit. If your dog tries to dive on the bowl before you give him permission to eat, pick up the bowl and start over. When your dog stops eating and walks away from the bowl, pick up any remaining food and dispose of it.

Mind Game #2: No Free Lunches!

Dogs that never have to do anything to earn their living (their food) can become very spoilt. They see no reason to obey their owner at any time because they can get what they want (food) without any conditions at all.

At least four times a week feed your dog his entire meal from your hand. Divide your dog’s meal up into 15-25 parts (depending on the size of your dog, this might be anything from individual kibbles to small handfuls). Have your dog perform a simple command for every part of his meal. It doesn’t have to be complex--it can be sits, downs, stand, shake hands, salute, roll over, etc.

If your dog is overly rough about how he takes food, work on his eating-from-your-hand skills with his first meal fed this way. If he tries to grab the food roughly from you, pull your hand away, give him a short time out, then offer the food again. If your dog refuses to carry out known commands, quietly put his food away until the next regularly scheduled meal. It’s completely up to him whether he eats or not--don’t try to convince him. Let him discover where his own best interests lie!

Mind Game #3: No More “Pee-Mail”!

Dogs sometimes use urination and defecation to mark their own territories. Some males are particularly persistent about urine marking as many places as possible (some bitches do this as well). I call this “pee-mail”--dogs send social messages to other dogs with their urine. Dogs do not need to assert their ownership over a large territory; some dogs who mark the same places on a regular basis become quite territorial.

Urine marking is different from regular urination--the dog sniffs something (often a vertical object or a place where another dog has peed), then moves forward a little and sprinkles that place with a few drops of urine.

If your dog is in the habit of marking during walks on lead, take control of his pee-mail. Give him (or her) two chances to urinate at home and then insist that your dog keep up with you during your walk. You may have to use a head halter to give you control over your dog’s nose.

Mind Game #4: Patience!

Dogs that are overly pushy and dogs that are too fearful share one important personality trait: they tend to be impatient. They move, act and make decisions too quickly. Having your dog do a thirty minute down stay every day helps teach your dog how to be patient and just relax.

First teach your dog to do a down. Then put him on leash, have him do a down and run the leash under your own foot. Leave your dog enough slack to lie comfortably but not enough to be comfortable sitting or standing.

If your dog gets up, just stay quiet and keep pressure on the leash. Let your dog discover how to be comfortable. Your dog will eventually relax and just hang out.

If you do this regularly, your dog will start to relax sooner and sooner.

Mind Game #5: Learning His Place!

Controlling the best spots to sleep are one of the games dogs play with each other to establish authority. As almost every dog could tell you, the best spots to sleep in any house are the furniture and human beds.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog lacks respect for you, prohibit your dog from getting up on the furniture and on your bed. If he doesn’t respect your “Off!” command, attach a houseline to move him when he doesn’t feel like moving. Don’t be harsh, just firm and matter of fact.

If your dog has a favorite place to sleep (a particular corner or dog bed), make sure to take control of that place at least once a day by making your dog move out of it and then sitting or standing in it yourself for a few minutes.

If your dog sneaks up on the bed with you after you fall asleep, put him in a crate or shut him out of the bedroom.

If you are playing Mind Games because your dog is fearful or anxious, it is important to get your dog out of the bedroom. British trainer John Rogerson has noted that he has never seen a case of separation anxiety in a dog that routinely sleeps outside the bedroom. I have seen a few cases of separation anxiety in dogs that didn’t sleep in the owner’s bedroom but *did* sleep with one or more other dogs. Removing the other dogs did trigger anxiety, so make sure your dog is sleeping in a room alone.

Mind Game #6: Taking Back Your Space!

Dogs can take control of a space by lying in the middle of the traffic pattern or by lying in the doorway. Anxious dogs are trying to prevent their owner from leaving, dogs with leadership ambitions are trying to control their owner’s movement. In dog society, the lesser ranked dogs have to move around the higher ranked dogs.

If your dog is lying in your way, shuffle your feet and shuffle right through him. You don’t want to hurt him (that’s why you’re shuffling) but you do want him to move for you.

Don’t ask your dog to move or warn your dog that you are about to make him move. Make it your dog’s responsibility to keep an eye on you and to move as needed to accommodate you.

If you think your dog might bite you, consult a trainer or behaviorist with experience dealing with aggressive dogs ASAP! In the meantime, put a buckle or limited-slip collar on your dog and attach a houseline. Use the houseline to move your dog.

**************************************************

**** Aticle cut and truncated by ADMIN - Need to limit posts to under 1000 words as per board rules. This article is well over 2000 words - in the future, post a selected quote and link the rest.
 
#159 ·
You bought a backyard bred puppy who is apparently nervy very young and you're in too deep. You don't know how to deal with her, you're taking advice from all the wrong people. Maybe you'll learn that this is what we meant about dogs from backyard breeders ESPECIALLY with first time dog owners?
 
#162 ·
I see a playful yet very confused dog :shrug: she is *not* aggressive. Her growling is her "talking" as a way of playing with you. She'd be a good one to get a BIG rope toy and play tug and wrestle.

If the only word or command your repertoire includes is "no", then you need to find a good trainer or give the dog to someone who can assist her in learning what she needs to learn.

If I was closer I'd come assist but unfortunately I am not.

Implement MIND GAMES, and see what happens :shrug:
 
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