Wow! Can't do that anymore!!

[DunRingill]

Originally Posted by Jag

Well, there's the difference. I'm not brushing it off. I don't know what you mean by "quashed" but it sounds like you're talking about getting physical with the dog. I hope I'm wrong. Starting a fight with a dog that likes to fight isn't a good idea, IMO. I'm not about to go there.

Different ways get thru to different types of dogs, and yes getting physical is sometimes the clearest and most direct way. Doesn't mean I knocked his block off, but offering him a treat sure wasn't going to get the job done! Getting physical can mean anything from body blocking the dog to get his attention off whatever he's locked on, or walking into him to get him to yield....or physically removing him from where he's standing and putting him in a crate or tying his lead to something so you can CONTINUE with whatever activity he was trying to interrupt. He just doesn't get to make those calls.

I get physical with my dogs....the play and the corrections are all hands on. Since you bring it up regularly it sounds like you want a dog that "likes to fight," so I sure hope to God that you are able to handle him.

[Jag]

I meant 'physical'.. as in smacking the dog, hitting the dog, etc. I've never had a dog that 'likes to fight'. No, that wasn't anywhere in my list of 'wants' to my breeder. I'd actually never heard that phrase until I spoke with my breeder. She wasn't talking about it in the 'things you look for in a good dog' either. There was a great article that someone posted a link to about working with dominant dogs. I will go find the link and post it here for you. I've also found helpful things from people who have this kind of dog, and it's more about mentally managing the dog than getting into a 'fight' with the dog. Made sense to me. I don't see where putting a dog in its crate, restricting the dog's movement by leashing it, or even body blocking the dog is 'getting physical'. Looks like we have different definitions of that phrase. As for me handling him, you don't have to worry about that.

Here's the link to the article
http://www.tarheelcanine.com/wp-cont...adshawV4I2.pdf

[DunRingill]

Originally Posted by Jag

I meant 'physical'.. as in smacking the dog, hitting the dog, etc.

I smack and slap my dogs all the time....in play. For some reason you can hit them pretty darn hard during play and they LIKE it.

There was a great article that someone posted a link to about working with dominant dogs. I will go find the link and post it here for you.

yes, I've read it. and I've even worked with and titled a few dominant dogs!

I've also found helpful things from people who have this kind of dog, and it's more about mentally managing the dog than getting into a 'fight' with the dog. Made sense to me. I don't see where putting a dog in its crate, restricting the dog's movement by leashing it, or even body blocking the dog is 'getting physical'. Looks like we have different definitions of that phrase.

I listed a few examples that could be used on a young puppy. Those certainly aren't the only examples of a physical correction! And there are some times, especially with a very young dog, when a quick grab and a clear "You will NOT do that" work wonders. Fortunately I'm not currently working a dog that has dominance issues, and it's oh so nice and relaxing, tho I did have to become reacquainted with the finesse side of training. Bunny isn't a pushover by any means, but Mike just plain didn't notice finesse, and he wasn't interested in giving anything in order to get a reward. I still use physical corrections but also physical play, and sometimes the line between the 2 is pretty blurry.

As for me handling him, you don't have to worry about that.

OK. I have absolutely no idea what your real experience level is, and it's very difficult to tell from your posts.

[Sunflowers]

Originally Posted by DunRingill

I have absolutely no idea what your real experience level is, and it's very difficult to tell from your posts.

Jag is on her 4th GSD.

[DunRingill]

Originally Posted by Sunflowers

Jag is on her 4th GSD.

Really I meant training and behavior experience. Lots of people have dogs and don't really work with them.....and that's OK until they end up with a difficult dog!

[Lilie]

Originally Posted by Jag

I was just playing like this with a stuffed toy of hers (then throwing it down the hall for her) and Grim heard her growling and saw that she was engaged with me (the stuffie was small... I don't know if he thought she was biting me or what) and he came running up and grabbed her by the scruff and pulled her away from me. He was NOT playing. When he got her off me, he moved to stand in front of me, blocking her out.

I'm speaking from past failures on this one. The moment he came running towards you, you should have corrected him. When he grabbed her, you should have corrected him. He should never have had the chance to stand in front of you to block.

This behavior can tip the scales between the two dogs. Once it has, it's very difficult (and in my case, I've failed horribly) to fix.

I allowed something very much the same take place within my current dogs. Admittedly, I watched with surprise when it happened. If I had reacted and continued to watch for the red flags and corrected, I would not have to crate and rotate for the life time of two of my dogs now.

The two dogs I refer to were best buds as well. Now, they can't even be in the same room together.

I think we have to remember that our dogs can read our body language as well as the body language of us humans better than we ever give them credit for. If your dog was growling(seriously) at you and you were reacting (fear) to that growl then I think I'd have given him a free pass for correcting the dog you were playing with. But it was obvious that you were playing - albeit rougher than normal - it was considered by both parties to be play.

[KristiM]

I think in these situations you do need to be careful with corrections. This is just my experience with havoc, I tried to correct his dominant, controlling behaviours and it made it worse! I will admit that I got pretty angry and frustrated and I gave havoc some real "knock his block off" corrections which turned his dominant, controlling behaviour into angry aggression directed at my other dogs. If I could go back it would all be about self control, I would use the behaviour as a positive opportunity to start implementing some self control around things he felt needed controlling, protecting whatever you want to call it.


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[Jag]

I can't believe I'm going to do this, but I am.

When Grim came running towards us, I expected he'd do what he's always done...which was want to play too. He grabbed her and pulled her off in two seconds or less. Too fast for me to react at that point. The maybe five seconds he stood in front of me, I was trying to process what just happened. Then he trotted back to his food bowl to eat. I will be prepared next time and stop Grim before he ever reaches her. I PROMISE. Thankfully, there have been no further issues between them. I do NOT allow fighting. I don't know if he saw the toy or not. I don't want to test this by using the rope toy, because I won't know if he's coming over to play or to 'remove' her and I don't want a repeat.

Due to my high stress level at this time with things going on here (not dog related) I think I'm done posting about Grim. Too many people making too many assumptions about things. Either I'm not making myself clear in my explanations, or people aren't actually reading what I'm posting.

Yes, I have experience with dogs with behavioral issues. If you actually read my posts on this thread, you'd know that as I mentioned one of my dogs that had severe behavioral issues. No, I haven't had a Czech pup before, and no I've never had a pup this pigheaded before and no, I've never had a pup that pulled out adult behaviors before. I've also never had a pup that I never saw sleep before. No, I don't think I'm in over my head. Yes, I successfully trained my own shepherds in the past. Yes, I'm taking Grim to a trainer. Yes, he does know what he's doing. Yes, I did get what I asked for from the breeder. Yes, I do love my boy to death. Yes, I do realize that this isn't 'good' behavior. Yes, I do fully intend on keeping Grim. No, I'm not freaking out still over it. Yes, I do expect my dogs to do what I tell them to. Yes, I do realize that Grim likes to try to take control. No, I do not intend on allowing him to. Yes, when I run into issues I talk to those that I feel are "in the know" about him and are familiar with his bloodlines. Yes, I was familiar with his bloodlines before I got him. Yes, I was told he was stubborn and controlling before I got him. He's a working dog. He will be worked. Before I got Grim, I would have had a similar reaction as some of you. All I can tell you is this is something you have to see to believe. I'm extremely thankful that he isn't my first dog. Then again, the breeder wouldn't have sold him to me if he was. That's about it, I guess.

[Kyleigh]

WOW, I've just finished reading this entire thread ... twice. What a mess! What's happened here?

Jag posted a HOLY CRAP this is what just happened ... and most people SLAM her to the ground.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

Why do you let him dictate what transpires in the house? He's not even a year old yet. If it were me, I'd not let him do that type thing. He must respect you and realize that you're not being harmed.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

I think if you're in control then you need to be the judge of what's "okay" to "protect" and what isn't.
When your dog makes it's own decisions on that, that's a problem.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

I do not see your puppy's behavior as protection but rather resource guarding/attempting to control, neither of which are behaviors you'd want to encourage.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

That's essentially what I've been saying.
Whether it's actual "brave" guarding or resource guarding, it must be stopped.

You need to take control of this puppy, stop him from making such decisions and take over making decisions for him.

As I mentioned, it'll extend to humans soon enough this way. Not good at all.
When I see people bragging about how their puppy guards...it's always a red flag, sorry.

Originally Posted by Lilie

I'm speaking from past failures on this one. The moment he came running towards you, you should have corrected him. When he grabbed her, you should have corrected him. He should never have had the chance to stand in front of you to block.

This behavior can tip the scales between the two dogs. Once it has, it's very difficult (and in my case, I've failed horribly) to fix.

I allowed something very much the same take place within my current dogs. Admittedly, I watched with surprise when it happened. If I had reacted and continued to watch for the red flags and corrected, I would not have to crate and rotate for the life time of two of my dogs now.

The two dogs I refer to were best buds as well. Now, they can't even be in the same room together.

I think we have to remember that our dogs can read our body language as well as the body language of us humans better than we ever give them credit for. If your dog was growling(seriously) at you and you were reacting (fear) to that growl then I think I'd have given him a free pass for correcting the dog you were playing with. But it was obvious that you were playing - albeit rougher than normal - it was considered by both parties to be play.

The few people that spoke up, their posts were completely dismissed:

Originally Posted by Jo Ellen

Puppies do like to surprise us, don't they I actually love it when I learn something new about Spirit ... whether it's positive or negative. It's all just getting to know your dog and learning and growing together.

Originally Posted by Sunflowers

Jag will be prepared next time. I am sure this post was a "holy cow!" post, and not a " I don't know what to do" post.

Next time Grim does this, she will correct him.

What I am seeing is not an owner who is not in control, but an owner who is being constantly surprised by a puppy who is not expected to behave this way until much later.

THIS (as per Sunflowers) is exactly what I got from Jag's THREE posts (why she felt the need to repeat what happened three times is beyond me. Her first post was crystal clear).

It stuns me that so many of you would slam Jag so quickly.

Did she miss the boat on stopping Grim from "bullying / being alpha / whatever" towards the pug. Sure, she did! I'm sure she was more shocked / surprised than anything, and the 5 or 6 seconds it took her to recover were too late at that point to do much. TIMING is everything ... we all know that.

BUT does that mean she deserved what was thrown at her? Come on ... how many of us have missed the boat the first time? ALL of us ... Not ONE of is perfect and has instantly caught every single "infraction" our dogs have made. If we did we wouldn't have a sub-category of aggression on this forum.

Jag - I know you're moving today, and your life must be very hectic right now! Good luck on the move ... and looking forward to hearing more stories about Grim and his shenanigans.

[Kyleigh]

WOW, I've just finished reading this entire thread ... twice. What a mess! What's happened here?

Jag posted a HOLY CRAP this is what just happened ... and most people SLAM her to the ground.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

Why do you let him dictate what transpires in the house? He's not even a year old yet. If it were me, I'd not let him do that type thing. He must respect you and realize that you're not being harmed.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

I think if you're in control then you need to be the judge of what's "okay" to "protect" and what isn't.
When your dog makes it's own decisions on that, that's a problem.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

I do not see your puppy's behavior as protection but rather resource guarding/attempting to control, neither of which are behaviors you'd want to encourage.

Originally Posted by msvette2u

That's essentially what I've been saying.
Whether it's actual "brave" guarding or resource guarding, it must be stopped.

You need to take control of this puppy, stop him from making such decisions and take over making decisions for him.

As I mentioned, it'll extend to humans soon enough this way. Not good at all. When I see people bragging about how their puppy guards...it's always a red flag, sorry.

Originally Posted by Lilie

I'm speaking from past failures on this one. The moment he came running towards you, you should have corrected him. When he grabbed her, you should have corrected him. He should never have had the chance to stand in front of you to block.

This behavior can tip the scales between the two dogs. Once it has, it's very difficult (and in my case, I've failed horribly) to fix.

I allowed something very much the same take place within my current dogs. Admittedly, I watched with surprise when it happened. If I had reacted and continued to watch for the red flags and corrected, I would not have to crate and rotate for the life time of two of my dogs now.

The two dogs I refer to were best buds as well. Now, they can't even be in the same room together.

I think we have to remember that our dogs can read our body language as well as the body language of us humans better than we ever give them credit for. If your dog was growling(seriously) at you and you were reacting (fear) to that growl then I think I'd have given him a free pass for correcting the dog you were playing with. But it was obvious that you were playing - albeit rougher than normal - it was considered by both parties to be play.

The few people that spoke up, their posts were completely dismissed:

Originally Posted by Jo Ellen

Puppies do like to surprise us, don't they I actually love it when I learn something new about Spirit ... whether it's positive or negative. It's all just getting to know your dog and learning and growing together.

Originally Posted by Sunflowers

Jag will be prepared next time. I am sure this post was a "holy cow!" post, and not a " I don't know what to do" post.

Next time Grim does this, she will correct him.

What I am seeing is not an owner who is not in control, but an owner who is being constantly surprised by a puppy who is not expected to behave this way until much later.

THIS (as per Sunflowers and Jo Ellen) is exactly what I got from Jag's THREE posts (why she felt the need to repeat what happened three times is beyond me. Her first post was crystal clear).

It stuns me that so many of you would slam Jag so quickly.

Did she miss the boat on stopping Grim from "bullying / being alpha / whatever" towards the pug. Sure, she did! I'm sure she was more shocked / surprised than anything, and the 5 or 6 seconds it took her to recover were too late at that point to do much. TIMING is everything ... we all know that.

BUT does that mean she deserved what was thrown at her? Come on ... how many of us have missed the boat the first time? ALL of us ... Not ONE of is perfect and has instantly caught every single "infraction" our dogs have made. If we did we wouldn't have a sub-category of aggression on this forum.

Jag - I know you're moving today, and your life must be very hectic right now! Good luck on the move ... and looking forward to hearing more stories about Grim and his shenanigans.