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Old 11-17-2012, 12:31 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Jag will be prepared next time.

I am sure this post was a "holy cow!" post, and not a " I don't know what to do" post.

Next time Grim does this, she will correct him.

What I am seeing is not an owner who is not in control, but an owner who is being constantly surprised by a puppy who is not expected to behave this way until much later.
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Old 11-17-2012, 12:36 PM   #12 (permalink)
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What I am seeing is not an owner who is not in control, but an owner who is being constantly surprised by a puppy who is not expected to behave this way until much later.
Puppies do like to surprise us, don't they I actually love it when I learn something new about Spirit ... whether it's positive or negative. It's all just getting to know your dog and learning and growing together.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:47 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sunflowers View Post
Jag will be prepared next time.

I am sure this post was a "holy cow!" post, and not a " I don't know what to do" post.

Next time Grim does this, she will correct him.

What I am seeing is not an owner who is not in control, but an owner who is being constantly surprised by a puppy who is not expected to behave this way until much later.
Exactly. He totally caught me off guard, because in the past his thought was "I want to play, too!" No, he's not gotten into a fight with the Pug before. Until he's got more self control, I'll play with the Pug like this when he's not loose in the area. Oh, and he CAME with this attitude of "I am king of the world", it's not something that developed. Being that his basic temperament is that he controls everything, I'm not going to be able to change who he is. Work with it? Of course! He has a very dominant personality. However, he doesn't care if I play with the Pug. Apparently, he DOES care if the Pug is growling at me. I seriously doubt (although this is just from what I know about him so far) that this dog is going to ever stay in a 'down' if another dog (in our pack or not) is growling at me. He was expected to be very handler protective. It's one of the things I wanted. Did he perceive her as a threat to me? Not until she growled. He was eating his kibble until she growled. Then, he looked to see what she was growling at. He didn't 'fight' with her, either. He never growled. He never barked. He never bared his teeth. He removed her, and stood 'guard'. After a few seconds, he went back to eating his kibble. Like nothing happened. Typical Grim. (Acting like nothing happened)
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:52 PM   #14 (permalink)
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My golden retriever did that to an dog across the street looking for a fight. Mind you, this dog is practically the size of her paw LOL. She pinned her to the ground by her neck in a second flat and held her there, no sound from her at all.

It's quite something to see, isn't it.
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sunflowers View Post
Jag will be prepared next time.

I am sure this post was a "holy cow!" post, and not a " I don't know what to do" post.

Next time Grim does this, she will correct him.

What I am seeing is not an owner who is not in control, but an owner who is being constantly surprised by a puppy who is not expected to behave this way until much later.

Exactly how I took it too!!
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Old 11-17-2012, 01:57 PM   #16 (permalink)
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I think if you're in control then you need to be the judge of what's "okay" to "protect" and what isn't.
When your dog makes it's own decisions on that, that's a problem.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:06 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I can only go by what I experienced with DH's dog, and what I personally will tolerate, so it's entirely subjective. But - why would a dog get upset when they hear a play growl? What does this mean, and what are the consequences? I was not happy that DH's dog decided that our game was a threat, because I figured that if she couldn't differentiate between a game and a threat, what was she thinking? BTW, she was also a notorious guarder - food, bones, and area. She's much better at this now, but she's still bad with food and needs to be crated at mealtime. She's an American Bulldog and generally very sweet, but not a dog you want calling the shots.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:28 PM   #18 (permalink)
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what was she thinking?
This is the problem. Dogs aren't notorious for making good, rational decisions.
You can't ascribe human morals onto them and say "Oh yeah, he knew the Pug was...", because obviously he didn't.

He grew up with this dog, hears it growl in play, and still took it upon himself to "correct" the Pug, who is an alpha to him and should be deferred to as such.

But that's how my own household would run.
Our pup, even at 15mos. or whatever, doesn't get to go around correcting the older dogs. It just messes up their heads, to think they should be the "cops" so to speak.
Ain't gonna happen here. And at just 4mos....that to me, speaks volumes. He is going to get worse and it'll transfer to people soon, if he can't take instruction from owner now, regarding other dogs.

OP, what will you do when your neighbor drops by and the dog decides it doesn't like him entering the front room? If you let him make decisions now over a play-fight with your other dog, he'll keep taking liberties as to what he deems appropriate or not. NOT a good scenario.
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Old 11-17-2012, 02:57 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Just a completely innocent question based on most that I've read on here but isn't a four month old too young to be guarding and protective? Most people are told that its fear based and to step up the training/socialization before you have a bigger problem on your hands.

Is it Grims pedigree that makes it different? I know this is what type of dog you were looking for and what your breeder gave you but just curious.

Btw he's growing into a very handsome pup since you brought him home.


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Old 11-17-2012, 03:14 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I'll try this one more time. Then I won't explain it again. Layla does NOT sound like she's playing when she growls during play. *I* know she's playing, but even our older mutt will bark (although she doesn't get up) when Layla's playing this way. Grim doesn't guard food, toys, or anything else. In fact, when he eats food falls out of his mouth all over the floor and Layla runs around eating what's on the floor and he just watches her and then goes back to his bowl. Layla is NOT alpha over him. She's also still a pup. HE *is* an alpha (by birth, by temperament) which is a challenge at times to have him listen to me when what he wants is something different. However, he isn't a jerk with her. He'll roll over on his back or side while playing with her. He does at times stand over her. She rolls on her side or back sometimes... sometimes she doesn't. It's 'equal' pretty much. Do I intervene? Yes, when it doesn't seem like fair play. However, she's bowled him over many times, and it doesn't start any fights. She's like a tank, so when she runs into him she has more physical power. This has never caused a fight or an argument. They play just fine. He didn't go after her once he stopped her 'attack' on me. They played the rest of the night as usual.

I didn't "allow" anything!! This was something that there was no way to predict. By the time his intentions were clear, it was over. He didn't hold a grudge. Neither did she. Now that I DO know he'll react this way, I'll avoid the situation or correct it before it gets there. If he'd been growling on his way or even when he got there, I'd have stopped him before he made contact. I'm not trying to have dog fights. These guys are best buddies.

msvette2- you're making leaping assumptions about how I handle things. It's not possible to 'correct' something when it's a new behavior that happened quickly and before you knew it was going on. You must be a mind reader to dogs. I'm not. Of course I wouldn't allow him to 'decide' (at this age) who he needs to 'protect' me from! Do you really have THAT low of an opinion of me?? At his age, he doesn't have the experience to make those decisions. I've never seen a pup his age act the way he does sometimes. So how would I possibly know that he'd react this way?? It's unusual. (To me, anyway) How many dominant Czech pups have you had? This is my first, and I really didn't think there would be *that* much difference between him and the other pups I've had. However, he's proving me wrong at times. This is one of the reasons we're going to a trainer. One with decades of experience with Czech dogs. I have no intention of letting him 'run the house'. However, I do understand that there are things about him that are rooted in his temperament, his genetics. I know those things can't be changed, but can be managed. Do I expect him to make decisions when he's older? Definitely. Right now, his suspicion of people is very low. So anyone who comes into our house is OK with him. I've had people he doesn't know walk through the door. He's been just fine with it. Will that change? Yes, I know it will change. When? I don't know. I suppose it will be like this episode. One day he's OK with it, the next he's not. How will I know in advance? Not a clue. Since he'll start training in a week or so, I hope to have more of an idea on all this.

Shepherds are known to be the 'hall monitors'. However, it usually doesn't happen until they're older. Right now, the old lady mutt is the 'hall monitor'. Do I let her get away with it? No! She doesn't interfere, but she'll bark. I get after her for that, too. By the time I knew what Grim was up to, it was too late to correct him. He would have just been confused. No matter what adult behaviors he throws out there now and then, he's still a pup. Not that I won't draw the line, but when you don't know what to expect because he's still changing I don't know how you'd know in advance that a pup will throw out an adult behavior.

One last thing. I know we don't agree on pack ranking. You think it goes by age, and I think it goes by temperament. Grim can think he's the alpha all day long, but that doesn't change what I'll put up with and what I won't. However, expecting a natural born alpha to defer to a non-alpha just because of age is trying to change their genetic makeup. I won't waste my time or effort. I DO expect the rules to be followed, regardless of their genetics. However, you can't know they're about to break a rule in advance. As I said, he's come over before when I was playing tug with Layla and just wanted to join in. So I expected he was going to do the same as he's always done. Who would expect that reaction from a 4 month old? Now, I will expect it. To any 'stranger' Layla certainly does not sound like she's playing with that growl. I'm assuming that Grim didn't know, either. We were also playing with a small stuffie. He may not have seen the toy and thought she was biting me. I don't know. Either way, that's not a behavior I'd allow. BUT, he never did that before. I hope this is now clear. I can't break it down or explain it any more than this.
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