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Puppy choosing: Dominant vs Vocal? HELP

3K views 28 replies 7 participants last post by  mdm282 
#1 ·
Hello Everyone!

So I'm soon to be new GSD owner, but I've been dog owner throughout the years! I did extensive research on different breeders, lineage background, health guarantees, etc., and ultimately decided on a particular breeder with working lines.

The pups come from high working drive lineage, so from the beginning I understood they will have high drives. Based on my preferences, I can ultimately choose from 2 females since both are very similar in their temperament.

Both are very driven and confident, so here is my dilemma (esp. since I have an 8 year old child):

Female 1: dominant over other pups (females/males), rougher with toys
Female 2: VERY vocal

So is the supposed "dominance" in F1 can really be read as one at 7 wks old? Is it just a way she plays in the dog pack? Can she become overly dominant once she's older or even possibly turn into dominant aggressive dog?

In case of F2 - Do you think that if she's so vocal at such a young age, she could be fear aggressive? Or could that and her going back/forth in the kennel be just her way of asking for play time?

Any help is much appreciated! It would be great to hear from owners who's dog expressed similar behaviors as pups and how their personality/behavior developed over time.

Thanks for all you help!
 
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#4 ·
What is the breeder's take on the two pups? Personally, all other thing being equal, I'd go with F2. I have enough bossy girls around here :D.
Seriously, it's kind of hard to say without seeing the pups. What are your plans for the pup? Do you have an experienced outsider that could go with you to evaluate pups? If you're planning on competing in some way, then I'd get the advice of your trainer if at all possible.
 
#7 ·
BOCRON: Do you train for Cooper Creek? I was actually going to call CC tomorrow with that question, since it's "close" by and been considering them for training!

The breeder said both are confident, driven, playful...

I want to have a dog that is great with my 8 y.o. child (safety is my priority), but at the same time easy to train. She'll be put through obedience and protection training for sure and will take it from there (competing might be in the future, but not sure as of yet).

Unfortunately, I can't possibly take anyone experienced with me, because the breeder is out of town. I will be able to spend some time with the pups, so I would appreciate any input as to what to look for...
 
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#6 ·
Thank you for your concern! Yes, she would go through basic (obedience) training and would like her to be trained in personal protection.

I would also never attempt to train the dog (esp. in protection) myself, but only by professional trainer. :)
 
#9 · (Edited)
My pup Onyx was described as your F1.
In Onyx's case, she turned out to be anxious and because of her dominant behavior tried to rule the world, which increased her anxious tendency. She would act aggressive out of fear and I had to really step up my handling to show her "I had the world under control" so she could relax.
She has a lower threshold than I'd like as well...I would almost assume the vocal F2 has that same low threshold? Personally, I'd rather have a thinker....a pup that watches, then decides to act, or vocalize than just do it because they can and are comforted by that activity.
I did get a higher threshold pup~ my male who I bought because the female couldn't handle any sort of protection training and was too reactive to go on to other sports or even do competitive obedience. A personal protection dog should have a clear balanced head, or it will possibly be a liability.
 
#10 · (Edited)
onyx i have a thinker also


but can onyx do personal protection? Can you male? Just curious Like jacket, hidden sleeves bite suit etc.. I don't mind sport dogs as long as they can easily do pp and willing to go after the man when he drops the jacket and gets out of his pants lol


reactive = sharp? i always considered them the same kinda, my dog is not reactive or sharp which is nice cause i can let my guard down in public.
 
#12 ·
mdm you said you were thinking of joining the schutzhund club so you do not have your heart set on personal protection? personal protection selection is very hard and usually it is best to get a year old dog already tested for the task and ready to start more advanced training if you really wanted to do that. Or like onyx said it is a HUGe liability to train the wrong dog specially you have a young child in the house who will be bringing over her friends.
 
#13 · (Edited)
NO...Onyx cannot do PP, she lacks confidence.
My male Karlo who is higher threshold and a thinker can. He is balanced in his brain!
Karlo was very even keeled as a pup, not over the top in any thing personality wise but would bark without much provacation. Off switch worked from the get-go.
He wasn't(isn't) whiney like Onyx. Karlo would be having a blast doing hidden sleeve or muzzle fighting. He will go on a suit/sleeve without hesitation.
We train in IPO but he does get some civil work thrown in now and then. Because he is a Czech/WG blend, his Czech side gives him a bit of suspicion(which makes him think) he doesn't just go off willy nilly because he can. I don't really consider his character as a sport dog...he thrives on the real type scenario vs the repetitive game playing.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Onyx after you out him during bite work can the decoy approach as long as you calm him down now and the decoy doesnt threaten? he wont do a sucker bite will he? lol My bitch is also a czech mix lol I trained her out of any sucker biting she does know the decoy now well. Shes just learning skill. Once i out her though the decoy can approach her usually and shes calm or i can let her go free and shes pretty good.


Onyx was the pure ddr? shes still very beautiful.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Yes, we work on the SDA type scenario...he gets 'agitated' then we have to do a friendly greeting with no bite (his stress release, LOL). Karlo is not a dirty biter...but there are a couple helpers he detests and will push some, I use to be sure I had the line before the sleeve was slipped.

He won't out sometimes when I command him if he's on a new helper, he wants to test them some...we work on this whenever I get him on a new one! He understands what is expected, but does love to see what he can get away with(typical boy!)
My female Onyx, I have no idea her lineage....her ' byb' didn't have all her ducks in a row when she produced the litter(falling out w/ sire and dams owners so papers were never produced). I do believe that her sire is Am pet lines and the mother has some East German. Her color comes from the dam's side as does her white spotting so she probably has more Am Showline in there too.
I wish I had the pedigree just to understand Onyx a bit better!
 
#20 · (Edited)
Yes, we work on the SDA type scenario...he gets 'agitated' then we have to do a friendly greeting with no bite (his stress release, LOL). Karlo is not a dirty biter...but there are a couple helpers he detests and will push some, I use to be sure I had the line before the sleeve was slipped.

He won't out sometimes when I command him if he's on a new helper, he wants to test them some...we work on this whenever I get him on a new one! He understands what is expected, but does love to see what he can get away with(typical boy!)
We were just talking about taking cheap shots at the helper last night on our way back from seeing our new house. Looks like our move will be next weekend, so I'm hoping to start training right after Thanksgiving. FINALLY!! :D We'll be working the same type of training... and it's all incredibly exciting for me! We feel this is the best thing for Grim, as does his breeder. I don't see him working in prey drive much. Where most clubs and trainers expect this, it's nice to have found a place where defensive drive is preferred and he can just do his thing. It's my understanding that Czech lines have a genetic civility that works well in this type of training, and it's the same reason they can do LE work and military work so well.
I'm part way through that vid. I LOVE the 'don't threaten my handler' reaction, LOL!!
 
#18 ·
#1 could be a dominant dog, or could be a fearful dog. My pup (who is truly dominant) was described by the breeder as "stubborn" and "has to have things his way" also as a "thinker". I've seen all of these in play since the day he arrived. He doesn't bully. He doesn't start fusses. He's more subtle than that. He carries himself as though he's the baddest thing to walk the earth. He expects that no one will make him do anything he doesn't want to do, and will refuse to do things unless you get it through his stubborn head that YOU are the one in charge. The bullies are usually less confident. Vocalizing doesn't say much to me about temperament. Grim is very vocal. Other than him using it to grumble about things he disagrees with, it has nothing to do with 'who' he is. I'd want to know more about their personalities before making this choice. What do they do in certain situations? What are their reactions to new things, places, noises, etc? If the breeder can't give you more info., I'd be wanting to move on to another breeder. :(
 
#19 ·
No, I wanted to do IPO and have a stable dog I could take anywhere....after Onyx, that was my main concern. Karlo's sire was a retired K9 and his owner put many titles on him. Karlo has his daddy's genes, and his moms sweet snuggle factor.
I wish I was a better handler to showcase his attributes. We don't have a PSA club around here, I would probably go that route if so. I entered K in a protection challenge and he did well as we really didn't train the scenario's as the others we competed against did. Karlo enjoyed it as much as I did!
Here is Andy(Karlo's sire), he really is the perfect GSD!
Andy's Anthology - YouTube
 
#21 ·
mdm282, what are your pups lines, can you post a pedigree?

as I've already hijacked this thread(sorry!), I want to post a vid of Andy man tracking after he was retired from formal training/trialing. Work ethic never ends!
 
#23 · (Edited)
nice vid onyx my bitches father is also a titled patrol dog


its not pure defense its a mix of defense and prey

when my dog is being worked she seems to be in both or being switched in and out of both its really wierd, she boxes and spars with the decoy like they are in a boxing or ufc match. Like the decoy is a fighting partner. Jag your dog has to work in prey drive also or he will be a stressed out mess in protection. Prey drive is a happy place to be and then defense is an ugly place to be. together they seem to balance each other out. Too much of either is a bad thing.
 
#25 · (Edited)
Jag also if your dog is a puppy i wouldnt be working it in defense let it mature and just work it in prey till its drives balance out for now. Don't put too much pressure on it where it feels it needs to go into real defense (fears for its life) Join a sport club and when its over a year and confidant then think about other stuff. Puppy shouldn't be getting defensive like that.
 
#26 ·
Jag also i just wanted to comment no decent place is going to prefer dogs working in defense, that is just a very confidant police dog that can handle a lot of pressure and is in fight? drive. It depends on the dog what the goal is and what needs to be worked on to get to that goal and the level of experience and nerve of that dog etc..

Working young not ready dogs in defense is a great way to screw them up and ruin them. A lot of crappy trainers will do this and try to trick you into thinking they are making your dog really tough and vicious for protection. usually Personal protection trainers who try to scam people will do this.
 
#27 · (Edited)
I think you misunderstood my post. I stated that most clubs don't want to see a dog work in defense. They want only prey. I am joining a club, but one that doesn't only work in prey drive. When the dog is mature, they work also in defense and more 'real world' than sport. I'm well aware that as a pup and very young dog, too much pressure will mess up a dog. This happened to my first GSD who ended up having to protect me at too young of an age (not by a trainer, by a home situation) and then was messed up from that. This trainer and club owner is very experienced and very good. It's the exact same type of club and training that Onyx's owner has Karlo in. You have no problem with that, but you're giving me grief, which I don't get. He's not going to take a five month old pup and put pressure on it that the dog can't handle. :crazy: I am speaking in the long term, and from what I've been told by other clubs about what they 'prefer'. I also know that he's got to do well in obedience. A dog that does badly in obedience should never be trained in anything put prey. (If that, even) However, he will start training right away. He needs the trial obedience and tracking training also. I'm not taking him to some personal protection hack trainer. I'm looking for IPO titles also. I just want my guy to have more experience than "this is a game to go play" because as he matures, I expect to see some genetic civil aggression out of him. Having an outlet for that and knowing what's appropriate and what's not is important to me.
My pup is also already handler protective. I didn't train that. In fact, it's surprising to me. It's not surprising to his breeder though. I talked to this trainer for over an hour. We talked about how they introduce 'stress' to dogs in training. Nothing that would make a dog fold or harm the dog mentally. This trainer was recommended to me. He said he prefers working with 'real' dogs. I don't see that as a bad thing. I think that dogs with IPO titles that will fold when confronted with a real threat is a bad thing, and the trainer agreed with me. If I wasn't on the same page with this guy, I wouldn't be willing to waste my time and money going there. Whatever your goals are with your dog, you have to find a place that those goals can be met. However, they have to be realistic goals and goals that aren't harmful to your dog. Any trainer that starts training young pups to work in defense is harming them. That's not what I meant at all, though. This is a long term thing for me...so that part will come later. That it's available is what is exciting, as a lot of clubs don't want that type of dog or that type of work.
More than police dogs can do this type of work. Any confident, stable dog can do this work. My guy is from PS lines. He's genetically predisposed to being able to do this type of work. Why not work with the genetics and temperament instead of against it?
 
#29 ·
Lots of breeders would pick a puppy for you (often you don't even have a choice of choosing one yourself), you just present them with what you're looking for and have to trust your breeder... I know what to look in a pup (had 2 Boxers, 1 Great Dane, 1 German Shorthaired Pointer), but in this situation there are 2 females with slight differences, so wanted to hear from GSD owners/trainers...

When it comes to pp... She's just about to be 8 WEEKS old, NOT pp trained, and nowhere near to be ready for pp training... It's somewhere in the future ONLY IF she has the right temperament to do so.

Thanks for your concerns, because I know that often owners don't realize what it takes to handle a dog, which unfortunately can lead to accidents.

I'm not naive and safety is my top priority, so I posted the question to hear from people who had/have dogs with similar personalities and from trainers who have experience and could give me some extra advice.

Thanks again! :)
 
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