8 Month Old Growls When Eating

[tuffloud1]

I have watched the Ed Frawley videos: Establishing Pack Structure and Basic Obedience Training.

I am using Ed's techniques in establishing pack structure and my boy is doing great with sit, down-stay's, waiting when I go in and out of doors, waiting calmly when I open crate or gates.

He is completely non-aggresive around my 2 year old and 6 year old kids and other people.

I have taught my 2 children to leave him alone while eating and they do.

The only time he growls is when he's eating. I make him stay calm and sit before I open his crate to feed. I say "go" he walks over to his spot about 8 feet from his crate, I say "stay", then I put the bowl down in his crate, he has complete control, then I release him and say "go" and he walks into his kennel and eats, I close the door and leave him in there until he's finished which only takes a minute or two.

I've noticed that whenever he eats, and anyone else other than me approaches him or even walks by his kennel, he will growl and start inhaling his food as if its the last time he will ever eat. He will growl when my wife or kids just walk by even if they are 10 feet away. I've noticed that if I don't take the bowl out right when he's done eating, he will grab the bowl if they get close to him growl and then take it outside through the dog door. (the dog door is installed directly behind his crate which allows him access to his outside dog kennel which is 50ft by 12ft. The crate itself is mounted to the wall and I part of the crate out to allow him to pass through the dog door.

It worries me, especially with my two year old. He never, ever growls unless he has food or a high value item like a bone.

The only thing that ever causes him aggression is when he has possesion of food. What can I do to help my situation? It's as if he changes into a different dog when he's eating, then changes back when his bowl is empty.

Thanks for any help.

[Anja1Blue]

It's called resource guarding, and some dogs can get pretty possessive with food and sometimes toy, items. I have to ask - why are you feeding an 8 month old in a crate? The only time I ever did this was when I was training my dogs to go INTO a crate and feel comfortable about it. When that was accomplished I fed them in the kitchen, outside, wherever. Just curious......

Are you this guy's primary caretaker? It sounds as though your family has never been involved in feeding or training him - just you. Has he always growled at them as they walk by, or is this something new? If so, I think you should have them immediately share the feeding responsibilities (not the baby of course) using the same techniques he has learned from you. Make him sit or down (NILIF - nothing in life is free) then put down his bowl and walk away. That way he sees them also as being the providers of the good stuff, not competition for it. Some people go back to feeding by hand, the way they might with a small puppy - again the idea is to show your dog that you (they) control the food. It's yours, not his, you are providing for him. (Bones, bully sticks, are something else. They are EXTRA highly prized, and even my dogs might resist having them taken away. I never do - but if I had to, I would exchange them for another attractive food item - such as braunschweiger luncheon meat e.g., they love that.)

Basically I would a) stop feeding him in a crate which, as you say, has access to the outside. You need to stop that nonsense of him running outside with the bowl. b) Get your wife and older child more involved with this chap's routine. He needs to understand that they are above him in the pack, not subordinates, and this behavior will not be tolerated. If necessary, put a leash on him so that you can immediately correct unwanted behavior (such as growling when they pick up his bowl.)

Good luck - I'm sure others will have ideas (better than mine perhaps LOL)!
______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge
Conor GSD

[tuffloud1]

Originally Posted by Anja1Blue

It's called resource guarding, and some dogs can get pretty possessive with food and sometimes toy, items. I have to ask - why are you feeding an 8 month old in a crate? The only time I ever did this was when I was training my dogs to go INTO a crate and feel comfortable about it. When that was accomplished I fed them in the kitchen, outside, wherever. Just curious......

Are you this guy's primary caretaker? It sounds as though your family has never been involved in feeding or training him - just you. Has he always growled at them as they walk by, or is this something new? If so, I think you should have them immediately share the feeding responsibilities (not the baby of course) using the same techniques he has learned from you. Make him sit or down (NILIF - nothing in life is free) then put down his bowl and walk away. That way he sees them also as being the providers of the good stuff, not competition for it. Some people go back to feeding by hand, the way they might with a small puppy - again the idea is to show your dog that you (they) control the food. It's yours, not his, you are providing for him. (Bones, bully sticks, are something else. They are EXTRA highly prized, and even my dogs might resist having them taken away. I never do - but if I had to, I would exchange them for another attractive food item - such as braunschweiger luncheon meat e.g., they love that.)

Basically I would a) stop feeding him in a crate which, as you say, has access to the outside. You need to stop that nonsense of him running outside with the bowl. b) Get your wife and older child more involved with this chap's routine. He needs to understand that they are above him in the pack, not subordinates, and this behavior will not be tolerated. If necessary, put a leash on him so that you can immediately correct unwanted behavior (such as growling when they pick up his bowl.)

Good luck - I'm sure others will have ideas (better than mine perhaps LOL)!
______________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge
Conor GSD

Thanks for the reply. I was instructed by Ed Frawley (Leerburg) to always feed him in his crate.

As for having other family members feed - the Establishing Pack Structure video states for the pack leader to do all these things, and then when a child 8 years or older is ready to be trained in how to deal with the dog, I can do so. My daughter is 6 and still needs some training from me on how to give commands/timing.

Leerburg instructs to teach children to NEVER disturb any dog who is sleeping, eating, or caring for puppies.

I've been given a lot of advice, anything from "just leave dogs alone when they are eating" (which we do, but he still growls if people simply walk by) to "you better get this under control or it could develop into something worse".

[Anja1Blue]

Perhaps then it would be better for you, since you are following his protocols, to contact Ed directly and ask for his advice. You have an 8 month old dog which is growling at family members, and getting away with it. What happens when he is much bigger and stronger and perhaps decides that it's not only food he objects to them being around (like maybe, you.) I would be interested in what he has to say.
_____________________________________________
Susan

Anja SchH3 GSD
Conor GSD
Blue BH WH T1 GSD - waiting at the Bridge

[JeanKBBMMMAAN]

For now, I would feed and take a couple of weeks where no one would walk near the crate while he was eating. Give him a rest and allow him to stop being concerned about this. Whether you've done everything "right" or not, he is showing you that there is something missing/not right with how things are working there.

That whole process may be ramping him up to believe that the food is much more important than it is. On your mark, get set...GO! is how I read that. I wouldn't stick my hand in this guy's face either.

Kobayashi INHALES 69 Hot Dogs - The VIDEO! - Hot Dog Eating Contest Record! - YouTube

Kobayashi INHALES 69 Hot Dogs - The VIDEO! - Hot Dog Eating Contest Record! - YouTube

---> http://www.4pawsu.com/Donaldson.pdf
---->In addition to this great PDF (that you need to click on) she has written a book called MINE! about resource guarding.

[PaddyD]

Originally Posted by tuffloud1

It worries me, especially with my two year old. He never, ever growls unless he has food or a high value item like a bone.


Thanks for any help.

Okay
You are already starting to equivocate.
It is not just food, it is also a high value item. So he is resource guarding. I will give advice that will be argued against by just about everyone. Put him on free feeding. Put his dish out and keep a couple of cups in it at all times. When he finishes it put 2 more cups (not scoops) in it. He may pig out for a day or so but once he sees there is always food it will not be so 'special' to him. He can eat only so much and he will not overeat for more than a day or so if at all.
People say that they can't do that because their dog would eat themselves to death. That is nonsense. Dogs don't want to kill themselves. Once they are secure in the knowledge that food will be available they learn quickly to control themselves.
Sure, they pig out like a college kid the first time away from home. But dogs are smarter than college kids, they know when to stop.

[Maria99F4]

I agree with paddy D. How ever I have never had a proublem taking anything from my dog. He just waits paccently for me to return it to him. But if he is growling when he has food and you have young children it's Deffinatly a proublem that needs to be corrected right away. When I was younger I had a dog that did the same thing. She did bite me one time I was just walking past her. after that happened I would give her her food and she lost the aggression with everyone.

[Kittilicious]

I agree with Paddy too. Food is not a high value anything in this house because it's just there. Granted, I have since had to stop free feeding because of the puppy, but even still - it's just food to them, no big deal.

I also did what isn't a popular habit on this forum - I (and everyone in my family) put our hands in the food bowl, petted, took away the bowl/gave it back.. everything under the sun. But I can step over my dogs now while they eat with no problems, I can get into the cabinet that is right by their food bowl with no problems. Food is just food in this house.

I never really understood feeding a dog in a crate. I know people suggest it, but it makes no sense to me. I would rather my dogs eat in the kitchen/dining area where the rest of the family (pack) eats. Even the cat food is just a few feet away from the dog food. A crate, to me, is a place to rest/sleep. Humans don't get shoved in their bedroom to eat, why would you do it to a dog? JMO, of course.

[tuffloud1]

Originally Posted by Kittilicious

I agree with Paddy too. Food is not a high value anything in this house because it's just there. Granted, I have since had to stop free feeding because of the puppy, but even still - it's just food to them, no big deal.

I also did what isn't a popular habit on this forum - I (and everyone in my family) put our hands in the food bowl, petted, took away the bowl/gave it back.. everything under the sun. But I can step over my dogs now while they eat with no problems, I can get into the cabinet that is right by their food bowl with no problems. Food is just food in this house.

I never really understood feeding a dog in a crate. I know people suggest it, but it makes no sense to me. I would rather my dogs eat in the kitchen/dining area where the rest of the family (pack) eats. Even the cat food is just a few feet away from the dog food. A crate, to me, is a place to rest/sleep. Humans don't get shoved in their bedroom to eat, why would you do it to a dog? JMO, of course.

The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. Ed Frawley has a great deal of knowledge, however it seems that many people use the "dogs in the wild would" thing. Well our dogs aren't in the wild. So why would we try to keep some of that instinct inside them?

It makes a lot of sense to just keep his bowl full in the kitchen, monitor it for awhile around the kids of course. I never have him off leash in the house yet, he acts way to hyper and blockheadish still. Once he is used to eating in the kitchen, then stop keeping food readily available? Does this sound like a good plan?

Also I have his water outside the dog door on his deck I built for him, it's an automatic refill one attached to the spicket. He has never growled over water so I don't find it necessary to put water in the kitchen. He is very slobbish when he drinks. Now that I think about it, he probably doesn't guard because there is alway water at all times available.

[Kittilicious]

Originally Posted by tuffloud1

The more I think about it, the more this makes sense. Ed Frawley has a great deal of knowledge, however it seems that many people use the "dogs in the wild would" thing. Well our dogs aren't in the wild. So why would we try to keep some of that instinct inside them?

but even dogs in the wild eat as a pack.... they don't go off and eat on their own. Sure, they fight over food, but they still eat together in the same proximity.

It makes a lot of sense to just keep his bowl full in the kitchen, monitor it for awhile around the kids of course. I never have him off leash in the house yet, he acts way to hyper and blockheadish still. Once he is used to eating in the kitchen, then stop keeping food readily available? Does this sound like a good plan?

If he doesn't continue to eat more than he needs, you could continue to leave food out. I always freefed my dogs until this puppy arrived and I might end up doing it again if he outgrows his "I have to eat everything in the house" stage. My Golden still wants to eat when she wants to, which is always different times of the day, because she is used to just always having food there. She prefers to eat a few bites here & there, throughout the day. Her bowl is usually always full (the puppy knows to not eat out of her bowl). So I guess I still am free feeding in a way - there is always food out, it's just not for the puppy!