Help...advice needed (long)

[Razzle J.Dazzle]

I don’t know if it’s advice I really need or just your support, but I had a horrible morning today. I apologize in advance for the length of this post, but I really need to get it off my chest. Feel free to comment or not, but I could definitely use some encouragement right now.
We brought Razzle home back in September and he’s almost 6 months old now. From the beginning, I’ve tried so hard to ensure he has been properly socialized. We’ve done everything from puppy classes, outings to Home Depot, standing outside the grocery stores and Wal-mart, visiting a local school as classes were getting out, walks, pet friendly hotels, Bass Pro Shop, etc. The list goes on and on. I really feel like I’ve poured my heart and soul into this dog. He’s my first big dog and I didn’t want to risk having a dog that I couldn’t control or that could possibly hurt someone. I have been 100% dedicated to making sure he is a good dog.
I was originally going to train him in Schutzhund, but found out that over the next 5-6 months I am going to be traveling a lot for work and will not have the time needed to really commit to this sport. So, I wanted to find another outlet for him to burn some energy. Against all the advice I’ve ever been given from his puppy trainer and the people on this forum, I decided to take him to a doggy day care. My thought process was that it would be better than him sitting in his crate all day and if we ever had to board him, I wanted him to be used to the facility. Well, as you can probably guess, it turned out to be a BAD idea!

The first time we took him, they said he was a little nervous and “nipped” at a couple of the dogs, but that he warmed up towards the end. They encouraged us to bring him back and indicated that he would get used to it with more exposure. We took him back a second time today and I actually watched as the owner took him back to put him in enclosed play area. After he took his leash off, Razzle ran to the gate and was trying to get out. He was clearly frightened and didn’t want to be locked up. The man was pushing on Razzle to get him back in and close the gate before he could escape. I noticed the man did grab the scruff of his neck. He finally got the gate closed and came back to the front lobby where he informed me that Razzle bit him. He asked if Razzle has ever bit anyone and I said, “No, except for puppy play.” He then proceeded to tell me that the bite was aggressive and that I should do something about it before he got any bigger. The guy was really rude about it (IMO) and wouldn’t even make eye contact with me (talking with his side to me while he did something else). He suggested that someone needs to put him into submission and show him that biting is not o.k.
I then left and called my husband to tell him that I was going to pick Razzle up at lunch (half-day vs. the full day we had planned) and that we were never bringing him back there again based on the vibe I was getting from the owner. I got a call 5 minutes later saying that Razzle tried to bite him a second time when he was trying to put another dog into the play area. At that point, I just said I would come get him, which is what they wanted anyway I’m guessing. When I got there, the guy told me that he put Razzle into submission and tried to show me some not existent teeth marks on his arms. He asked if we have kids (no) and if we rough housed with Razzle (no). He also told me that he knew a trainer that worked with e-collars and that he’s just seen too many kids get hurt and emergency room bills. He couldn’t afford to have Razzle out with his staff. He told me if I worked with him, they would give him a second change….gee thanks!

I’m just sad because I feel like I have failed my little baby I was literally in tears over this. I’m also mad that this person chose to put my dog into submission. Did I not socialize enough or am I doing something else wrong? I want to blame it on the way the guy handled the situation, but I am open to criticism if I can do something better for Razzle. To top it all off, this guy was the owner of the place!!!
Needless to say, we won’t be going back.

[SamanthaBrynn]

Oh wow. I'm sorry you had such a bad experience. Sounds like to me your Razzle is just a mouthy 6-month old! It also sounds like you have most def done your part in socializing him. Poor Razzle. (Love that name by the way). I hope your day improves and I don't think you've done anything wrong.

[Kittilicious]

I think the guy needs to get a new business. Razzle is 6 months old... aggression? I think not. I'm no expert, but I just don't think thats the case. Sounds like he's probably afraid of this guy if anything else. What exactly is his definition of "putting him into submission"? I agree that I would never bring him back.

[N Smith]

Don't bring him back for daycare - but I would bring him back to give him a good experience there. This sounds to me like a fear response to being man-handled and put into a new situation where he was insecure - it was aggression, but was not due to lack of socialization, he was afraid.

Do not get emotional over this, that is the worst thing you can do for your dog. You learned your lesson, now move on.

Is there a space where you could do some up-beat marker training sessions (Lobby?) then leave without EVER leaving him there alone/for daycare and not allow the owner to touch him?

Even start outside the door, get him to do fun commands that he knows really well, make sure he is hungry and if he gets shut down or nervous, go back to the spot (outside, coat room, front desk etc) where he was last successful and able to work. Do not rush it - he may be completely fine on day 1 or he could take 10 sessions to view this place as ok, it will depend on temperament.

Either way, part of socialization is desensitizing the dogs to areas, people, objects they have fear/apprehension about, so just treat it like a visit to a new building, don't hold any resentment towards the owner, just go about your business of showing your dog this "new" area is ok!

[carmspack]

the dog was frightened out of his skull . If he had the chance he would have gone into avoidance, but the man had to grab him by the scruff and the dog bit out of panic and fear . Your dog was overwhelmed with the other dogs, nipped to have some personal space . Bad introduction. They are not fish that you bring home in a bag and pore into aquarium. Social animals need introductions .
Pretty much the same fear and panic response when the man tried to put the dog into another pen.
This cave-man attempt of putting him into submission , probably the alpha roll, helped convince the dog that there is something to be afraid of . The bites are defensive bites because given the chance the dog would have run and avoided .

Do not take this man's advice. Do not go back. Do not use an e collar.

What else can you share that will describe the dogs personality . Is this generally a nervous dog? This is where answers will be found. Socializing can only go so far .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

[middleofnowhere]

I would be tempted to verbally let the guy have a new oriface. If I were to use a doggy day care again, I would check them out beyond what you did this time & I would be very explicit about how they treated my dog.
If the fellow is an employee and not the owner, I would talk to the owner.

I'd be pretty mad.

[Lmilr]

Originally Posted by Kittilicious

Sounds like he's probably afraid of this guy if anything else. What exactly is his definition of "putting him into submission"? I agree that I would never bring him back.

I agree.
Sounds like he was afraid of the guy or at least the situation.
And personally, if someone put my dog "into submission" without my knowledge or concent, there would be **** to pay. I'm not to big on yelling and screaming mind you but it would definetely get ugly.

From what you've discribbed you've done a great job with your boy. Just never Ever go back there.

We have boarded Jager before and it turned out great. We took him there just for the day a couple times first and never had a problem. Before we left him there at all the owners talked to us and asked what 'style' we were using to train him, what kinds of things he already knew and what his drives were. All of this was just so that they would have aleast some idea of how to handle him and what he might respond to before just going out into the doggie areas.
Seems like that guy just does whatever he wants to first and if your dog doesn't like it then it's a bad dog. Which is just crap.

Either way I hope your day gets better

[Veronica]

Can you arrange for some private play dates with pups you know - at your house or theirs? I took Panzer to a dog park when he was young, and after a couple of pretty stressful visits, decided it wasn't the place for us. Private one-on-ones work much better.

I understand exactly what you mean. You haven't failed your boy. We all have bad days. He's somewhere in between puppy & young adult and it takes time for them to figure out how it all works.

[Rott-n-GSDs]

Find a nice, positive based obedience class and enroll in it.

There is absolutely no reason why your dog needs to learn how to behave off lead with strange, random dogs. If you want off leash play time with friends' dogs, get him used to THOSE dogs... doggie day care not needed.

Doggie day care is not a substitute for a sport/exercise. Find something like tracking, carting, skijoring, agility, obedience, or simply go for nice long walks together.

Try not to dwell on what has happened, as what's done is done. When my Luna was only 4 months old, I made the mistake of handing over the leash to a trainer whose methods I was not familiar with. He proceeded to put a choke on her and give her two STRONG corrections (strong enough to jerk her off her feet and make her yelp) to teach her not to go after treats he'd dropped. He started by throwing treats and letting her eat them (yay!) and then gave her a strong correction the next time he did it. I was dumbfounded and horrified. Luna was terrified of the ring after that... but she got over it quickly after being exposed to some good experiences. (I ended up continuing the class, but NEVER turning over the leash again and only using methods I was comfortable with). She now has no lasting effects.

[Razzle J.Dazzle]

Thanks all for the advice and support...your responses did help me feel better! I'm glad I have this awesome community to come to for advice.

Originally Posted by carmspack

What else can you share that will describe the dogs personality . Is this generally a nervous dog? This is where answers will be found. Socializing can only go so far .

Carmen
Carmspack Working German Shepherd Dogs

He's always had a good attitude/behavior towards people. He was very timid when I took him to his puppy class at 9 weeks, but he eventually warmed up and was fine. He's awesome around people now...not shy and definitely not aggressive. However, he still is nippy/shy around other dogs until he gets used to them...we're working on it though.

I definitely plan on other outlets for him to burn energy. He's going to be my running partner when he's old enough. Until then, we'll stick with walks. I'm also up for doggy play dates if anyone in the KCMO area is interested.