A study, two male litter mates Raw/Kibble diet and progress reports...

[lone Ranger]

I don't really know if we can come to any conclusions, but I thought I would start a Post on two dogs from the same litter, two males, roughly the same size, but on two slightly different diets...


Interestingly while Caesar (my pup) is powering on, he is not doing as well as his smaller litter mate. I am going back to mostly the Raw Diet. I am stopping the feeding of any kibble for right now.. Why? It could be just chance or genetics or a growth spurt, but Caesars littler mate that was smaller and smaller boned, is 19.4 kg where Caesar weighed on the Vet Scale was 17.7 kg last Monday at 14 weeks. In about a week and a half, they are coming for a visit to bring the Litter Mate "Ollie" so we will see if he is taller and more developed. It could be the end of my mix of Raw and Kibble.


It could also be my fault and I need to alternate the diet a bit and not give a wide selection with every meal. Chicken one day, beef and bone and organ meat another day, and so on.. The Owner of Ollie, is a purist of Raw, and the smaller pup is doing better, probably my fault in leaving food around too long and making a picky eater, but maybe the different digestive rate of the kibble could be a contributor... I am going away from the kibble, just in case it is the cause. A 1.7 kg difference, could be chance, or timing, and will reverse, or the pure Raw diet may just be better... We will see. The Breeder says, that while there are exceptions, She can usually pick the bigger dog by bone size and head size, and Caesar should end up a bigger dog. Now this could be the odd one out, but according to her most of the time Caesar should end up a bigger boned, larger dog, judging by him in the litter.

This may not be true, it could fall outside averages. Or it could be genetics, growth rate, or timing.. But it could also be my concern on diet. Anyway, we will see if the going back on the Raw diet 100% makes a difference. Maybe the mix is just not good because of the different digestion issues, or maybe it is just chance. We will follow it up for any of you interested...

Kind regards, out on the Last Frontier with GSD and horse in Australia...

[Mary Beth]

This is interesting reading. I don't know if feeding raw or kibble would have an effect on size. If it did - well my big Sting would be a good advertisement for kibble, so I tend to agree with your breeder on the bone size and so on.

[Nigel]

This will be fun to see how it plays out.

[lone Ranger]

It could actually be all my fault... I understand the variety required for the all Raw diet, but have been mixing too much. He has had chicken, beef, liver, and more all in one dish.. I have made a little bit picky of an eater, also leaving it with him tooooo long.

What I need to do is two things:
1) Feed chicken one day, beef and bone another, beef and organ meat, a different sort of meal each day, not a mix, that will keep him more interested.

2) I need to get in the habit of leaving it down for only a little while, so he eats when he has the chance... Or at night lock him up in his pen with his larger meal, as he will have nothing to do but eat..

We will see how it goes in the next week before we see Ollie on a visit...

[volcano]

A good goal in puppies is to limit their growth rate and keep them skinny. Otherwise its hard on young joints. My 10 week old never lets any food sit, but she was weaned on raw with her littermates so that makes sense. She does take her time with legs and feet but necks are one gulp so I cut them up.

[lone Ranger]

Wow, this Thread is going to blow right open now... My Breeder is not only coming for a visit this weekend and bringing the comparo male litter mate along.. (Live three hours away)... But also both She and I are going to see a three females pups from a great working dog Bloodline, where the Bitch is 48 kg and the Dog is over 50 kg... That is about 120 lbs of working dogs.. Anyway it is likely we will both get a pick of the three bitches in that litter to keep for breeding... Expensive but worth it, as I have seen them in action...

So not only will I have the unique study of one bloodline siblings, but now two set of two littermates from two bloodlines. We both want a bitch from this litter, for future breeding. Stay tuned, this could get interesting, not conclusive but very interesting with matched siblings from two litters to study diet and exercise and development results of two different styles...

I get nothing of this, save research and love of the GSDs... But I hope it is a help to some of you trying to do the best by yours...

[Mary Beth]

Yes - this is really getting interesting. Can't wait for the next installment. I was thinking you should get 2 dogs anyway - that will even up the odds with the dingos, and then the size of the dogs won't be such a concern.

[lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by Mary Beth

Yes - this is really getting interesting. Can't wait for the next installment. I was thinking you should get 2 dogs anyway - that will even up the odds with the dingos, and then the size of the dogs won't be such a concern.

Wow Mary Beth, You are a Sweetie !! And you are right, I have travelled with two Shepherds and it is the way to go.. My 10 year old Alpha Male has health problems, "Cody" (Dakota) and can't work anymore, and my 7 year old Bitch "Tonka" Wonkan Tonka (Buffalo Girl) has gone worthless. I made a few mistakes with her, spayed too early maybe, and She got bleeding gums unbeknowns to me had gotten into a rat poison cube, and She is just a lazy hang around.. She will always head home when she can.. It is one of those, OR She has the saying in Australia "Why have a dog and bark to" and she might just be letting the Alpha do all the work.

There is a chance She will rise to the occasion when Cody passes on, and She might become Alpha and Pack Leader until my male pup grows up.. The male litter mate is coming this weekend, and Sunday I will go part way back with them to see the female I have pick of the litter on. I will travel with two again, but this is more for breeding a great working dog line...

Incidently, Mary Beth, my Great Grandfather came from your area in South Dakota, "Lakota" Sioux, as there is no "D" in the Sioux language. I am about 1/64th I guess, only got the nose, and a love of horses, guns, wolves, and whiskey.. Out on the Last Frontier of Australia doing Dancing with Wolves as best I can...

Here is a Link, if successful, of a Pup, 120 lbs of natural Sable in his second session of PPD training... His mother is who I am getting the female from, both me and my Breeder are signed up for a female from what will be her last litter. No wild dogs or dingos are going to want a piece of this:

Secrets To Remember - YouTube

[Mary Beth]

yes, many of us Yanks consider your country to be the last frontier.So not surprising your great grandfather immigrated. I watched the video - my Sting enjoys those dog videos. And my Sting is big, but as I have heard "it is not the size of the dog, but the fight in the dog".

[lone Ranger]

Sting is very large and a good looking Dog...

I am hoping to get some good conclusions in having someone to compare notes with, two matching pups from two different litters, it should be interesting. Raw vrs Kibble or a combination is very controversial at best, and it is hard to know if you are doing the right thing by the one you love...
My kids are gone, my Shepherds are my children now.. I mean RAW is hard and messy, but if it is better and they live longer, so be it. My Breeder is a Raw Purist. I myself wish I could switch over to kibble and just supplement with raw when I wanted, it would be so much easier. I might even do this at 12 months when the growth is in... ???? I do take this seriously though, and have now slaughtered an older cow of mine (have to get over the pet deal with my cow) as She developed bottle teat, big teats the calve could not latch onto. The last calf cost me $1500 in vet bills and weeks of hand feeding, and anyway She is in the freezers in 1 kg packets, still doing some good for the hobby farm.

BTW, it was me that immigrated. I wanted to raise my three Children here. I did not like the trend America was on, and coming to Australia was like going back in time. Anyway, might as well be the 53rd State here, it is so much the same, but more like 1960 Texas in many ways.. heh he...

You have a great Mate there in Sting. Interesting name, the name of the sword and constant companion of Bilbo Baggins from memory, in the Hobbit.. A great gift.. Your Sting seems to be also..

Kind regards, lone Ranger