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-   -   Question for breeders-Progesterone testing (http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/pregnancy-whelping-raising-litter/395354-question-breeders-progesterone-testing.html)

dawnandjr 01-13-2014 09:02 AM

Question for breeders-Progesterone testing
 
This is a question for the breeders on this forum. Getting ready to breed Yoko, she is in heat, not ready yet. Male is in OK so doing AI. Bred to same male back in May, got one male pup from breeding. Male is young and repro vet said semen looked good. Did progesterone testing and I also was feeling the vulva for when it became soft. Softness coincided with progesterone rise. She showed 5.5 then 6 somthing then 8.6 (dont have my notes with me at work right now). We thought the timing was very good, but Yoko was also 7 yrs old. Was told by a local breeder friend that we were early in breeding her. Just wondering what others thoughts are? I am also going to do more testing this time around AFTER the breeding to see what her levels are. I do all this checking before hand, and then just drop off my monitoring when bred and I think I need to continue through to get a better picture of what is going on.

wolfstraum 01-13-2014 09:26 AM

I have done shipped and frozen a few times....

I got a full litter breeding on a 21 at the time of surgical AI.

Vet has done all others a day after a 9 to a 14 and never got pups....3 frozen, 2 shipped. To be fair, the vet was NOT happy with the semen on the last one, and another breeder had also done 2 shipped fresh AIs without pups. I am afraid to do a shipped at this point, and would like to know if others have numbers that are a better fit for getting pups.....also, this vet does get alot of litters for other breeders on both frozen and fresh chilled....I have semen frozen from Xito Maineiche and Ufo v Guy's Hof and am afraid to even try again!

Lee

dawnandjr 01-13-2014 04:13 PM

Yoko has Xento in her line (Xito's grandsire). I think you would just have to make sure and draw every day to get good numbers. I really wish there was a way to ultrasound the ovaries and see (like in humans) when they are ready to ovulate.

gsdsar 01-13-2014 04:53 PM

You generally want to breed 5 days or so after the LH surge.

I work for a repro vet and that her guideline.


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dawnandjr 01-14-2014 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gsdsar (Post 4827690)
You generally want to breed 5 days or so after the LH surge.


I work for a repro vet and that her guideline.

How does the vet determine when that surge is?

holland 01-14-2014 10:02 AM

I am not a breeder so really don't have a clue-but isn't the whole point of progesterone testing that when you get a certain level you breed the dog-my friend used to have it done at Cornell-they are awesome-love Cornell

Liesje 01-14-2014 12:05 PM

Holland, some places have a longer turnaround so it's not as easy as breeding at a certain level. My male missed a breeding this way. The breeder wanted to a shipped chilled semen AI, so we had everything lined up with my repro vet. In fact I was on vacation so my dog sitter had agreed to bring my male for boarding at the repro vet the day the breeder called for the collection, and they could collect him while he was there with my permission. The breeder brought the bitch in for progesterone testing. The next day the vet called with the result but the numbers showed she needed to be bred the very next day. Unfortunately that was 4PM our time, there was no way for my dog sitter to get my dog into the repro vet for collection in time and even then the shipping would have to somehow go in less than 24 hours. This was actually not the first progesterone test the breeder had done, she had been tracking the bitch's progress and that is how she guessed what day she thought my male would be needed. Well, the bitch simply sped up faster than anticipated and we missed our chance. It's more complicated when you are waiting for results and/or doing shipped semen which requires another 1-2 days shipping and a good vet on the other end to implant. Weekends can be a nightmare. My repro vet recently got their own machine so they can turn around results as fast as 2 hours, but since I own the male end it doesn't really help.

gsdsar 01-14-2014 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dawnandjr (Post 4830890)
How does the vet determine when that surge is?

The LH surge is timed by watching the progesterone. If you are shipping semen, then knowing the best day to breed us important for collection and shipping. So you get progesterone levels every 2-3 days. Once the progesterone spikes to over 4-5, then you generally know that the LH surge is imminent. So you schedule the insemmination 4-6 days post surge.

If breeding naturally, then you really just have to wait for the male to really show interest and the female to start flagging and be receptive. But if you are shipping or doing a surgical AI with frozen, timing is essential. Especially with frozen, since you really only get one shot.


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dawnandjr 01-14-2014 08:11 PM

gsdsar, thank you for your answer. But unfortunately its not as easy as that. This misconception being that bitches ovulate right at 5.0ng/ml. Was looking for some good numbers from others that test with progesterone to see how high they wait to AI. When talking with the coordinator at the vet she said some bitches they will wait til they get a 20.0ng/ml. I am thinking I am going to do my first test tomorrow, since we are coming up on a weekend. That way if she is rising, I could get semen shipped on Friday to inseminate on Sat. I am off on Monday (holiday), will have to see if the lab is open and draw again on Monday. Then with those numbers, decide if we need to do a second insemination.

gsdsar 01-14-2014 09:16 PM

You are right. 5 is not the number, but once they start rising it's considered the surge. Some bitches will go from 5 to 12 to 20 in 3 days. Generally if you are trying to time an insemmination you start planning for shipment to fall about 5 days after that initial surge. There is no way to know what the exact number will be in advance. But if you wait until the progesterone hits 20, THEN you ship, you are more likely to miss her fertile period. That's why regular testing and knowing when she surges is important.


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