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Papered VS non-papered..

36K views 86 replies 30 participants last post by  wolfy dog 
#1 ·
I do not want to start a flaming war.
Or bad feeling among the boards followers and members.

But I do have some strong opinions on statements made about BYB and supposedly accredited AKC breeders.

I have read statements such as "if it is not papered you do not breed it".

And I totally agree that Puppy Mills are absolutely terrible.

However, I have seen (yes, with my own eyes) AKC breeders that have absolutely terrible dogs that they breed simply because- A: it has papers and/or B: it has some "high profile" AKC sire/bitch/grandsire/grandbitch in it's linage.

Not only have the dogs been poor in one or another type; confirmation, color, and/or temperament; they have been over used as breeding stock. I mean too old, or by having too many litters.
Simply because they have papers, or some great well known dog in it's background.

I have also seen BEAUTIFUL dogs that have no papers because some where along the line a breeder did not want to pay to have the litter papered. And for a new puppy owner to have to pay for an entire litter to get papers for ONE puppy is ridiculous. (yes I have had to hunt down previous breeders to paper my animals)

I also think (in my own opinion) that the AKC standard for many breeds of dogs have been so Skewed over the years that most breeds no longer show their true forms.

Now, please do not take the previous statement as me against the AKC or papered animals. It is not. If I find a GOOD papered dog I'll gladly pay for what I feel is a decent animal with a decent price tag.

But you can not honestly say that if it is not papered it is not a good dog, or that if you are not an accredited AKC breeder then you are not a good breeder. Or even a good presentation for the Dogs standard.

And assuming that most buyers are uneducated in Breed standards or too cheap to buy a Papered animal is I think another insensitivity to them. Some people just want a nice looking, well tempered dog with out the HIGH PRICE associated with Papered animals. They don't plan on showing or breeding. Many just want an affordable nice looking puppy.

Perhaps Breeders who feel the AKC/papers and blood line information is so very important should consider pricing animals more appropriately for what the animal and potential owner are able to do. Instead of/or because the puppy came from so-an-so and has so many accomplished ancestors in it's linage.

Yes I do know and I do agree with limited registrations and Spay/Neuter contracts with puppies.

I utterly agree with spay/neuter(and even in some cases euthanizing) any animal that is potentially pet only or has some physical, mental(euthanizing) or conformational defect.

But I think as a whole community here and for positively promoting the German Shepherd breed, many comments should be stated on a case by case basis and not in an all-or-nothing mind frame/format.

And on a side note:
I have noted a great many of new members who ask for help, in many different forms, from understanding breed standards, mentality, feeding, training and Breeding/Whelping who are given scathing replies that do not help either the original poster or the German Shepherd reputations.

I feel that any one asking for help is doing a positive thing for themselves and their animal.


//end rant.
 
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#2 ·
I don't believe anyone says "if it's not papered it's not a good dog". However a good dog does not necessarily make a good breeding dog.

Part of breeding is knowing the dog's lineage because this provides insight into what genetics the dog carries. There are many genes, for health, temperament, physical traits and all sorts of other things that a dog may not express itself but that exist nonetheless and could be passed down to offspring. Papers and pedigree provide somewhat of a genetic roadmap to the dog and knowledge of those allows the breeder to make a very educated guess into what those hidden genes may be. This is vitally important when making breeding decisions. If the dog itself is good, but the rest of it's pedigree or close relatives are not, it is more likely to produce the not good than the good because of the prepotence of those not good genes in the bloodlines.

Without papers and pedigree, those important aspects are unknowns. If the breeder doesn't know the dog's lineage, the breeder can't know what genetics lie there and that does not make for sound breeding decisions.
 
#3 ·
The point of 'papers' is so breeders can find a stud or bitch that compliments their breeding program. A good breeder knows their dogs' weaknesses, as well as what dogs in their pedigree produce/pass on. Their goal is (or should be) to find a breeding prospect for their dog whose PEDIGREE, as well as the dog itself, complements their dog and their breeding program.
In short, the papers help the breeder produce what is the perfect puppy/dog in their image.

I'm not disagreeing with you about the fact there are some nice dogs that aren't papered compared to crap dogs that are.
However, there are plenty of excellent quality dogs out there that do have a recorded lineage so that resorting to those without them shouldn't be necessary.

In short, no papers = you don't breed because the dog standing in front of you is less than half of the equation.
 
#4 ·
I personally wouldn't buy on a spay/neuter contract. I won't breed but I won't neuter.

As far as price, most of the time they cost so much because that's what it costs to health test and title parents and raise a litter and make some profit.

But agree on some of your points that they're using the same dogs over and over and there are some untitled and unpapered dogs that can add to the gene pool. GSDs are inbred way too often in my uneducated opinion based on solely what I read on the net.


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#5 ·
The AKC is a registry for pure-bred dogs.

They maintain the stud books for our breed in the US.

That is their main function. They do some other stuff, they offer performance and conformation shows. But the point of AKC papers is to PROVE that the puppy you buy is a purebred dog. Nothing more. They do not require health screening or titling or conformation evaluation.

Probably the majority of purebred dogs should not be bred. That does NOT mean that ANY dog that is not pure-bred should be bred to produce an affordable companion animal. Sorry, but they should not be bred on the grounds that they cannot prove their ancestry. And the many pure-bred dogs that you mentioned, should not be bred on whatever grounds that they fail to adhere to the standard.

If a a farmer has a dog of any origin that is excellent with his livestock and he uses that dog to manage his livestock than he is free to breed the dog, and use one or more of its offspring to do the job. I see no problem with his thinking. He isn't concerned with a GSD or an ACD, he is concerned with his cattle or sheep or whatever, he has a job to do, and he has a dog that is excellent at that job.

There are plenty of dogs that need companion homes. If people want a cheap dog, they can go to the pound, and hopefully save a dog from being euthanized because the 6'x3' area that he inhabits is needed for another homeless dog.

2 wrongs do not make a right. Just because there are poorly bred pure-bred dogs out there, does not mean we should just throw up our hands and breed anything and everything that moves, whether it conforms to any standard, or whether or not it has papers. Without papers that have some validity, you have no way of knowing what is behind your dog, no way of knowing that you are not breeding a bitch to her sire, a brother to a sister.
 
#9 ·
Thank you, I understand now. Why cull? Why not neuter? I don't get it, as long as they can't pass the genes on, what's the problem?

It makes sense about the limited gene making all the traits come out, but doesn't it catch up after a while? Can't this be the reason for all the disorders out there?


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I think that there is always the opportunity for degredation to happen when breeding is done soley for competition. But to say that that is the reason for all the disorders out there I think is a bit much.

As for your first question, the American show-scene is very competitive and very political. I think that some individuals, at least in the past would rather kill a white pup than to let others know that it was produced by their breeding. They would rather put a dog down than to allow dogs that they knew had issues to go to homes where it may come back to them, a negative about their breeding program. And, owners of such dogs, even if given full disclosure about an issue, may be an endless source of irritation to the breeder.

I think a big reason for culling was that they felt that 7 or 8 was all a mother dog should manage, so if a litter had 10 pups, they would kill any off-color pups or pups with a problem right off and then kill a perfect puppy to get down to a certain number of pups -- it is in the book, I am not making this stuff up.
 
#10 ·
Chris, Konotashi, Selzer:

I agree in the facts that papers do show who's been bred with whom. And what characteristics one might expect from breeding known lines together.

But you can not tell me, that with out GENETIC testing, that just by the 'papers' you KNOW that you are making a better dog.

And You say the AKC is just for record keeping, yet, their Shows and Breed winners Represent that breed in the entire United States.

Then how can you say they are only a record keeping program?

When an AKC winning animal, in my opinion, shows no true representation of the breed standard then they are misrepresenting that breed.

And I find fault in their Blood testing program as well.
It can verify (if the litter parents are both DNA tested) the puppies linage, to that degree and only to that degree.
But they will not accept genetic testing to determine if your animal is a "True blooded breed".


And In-breeding is very common with AKC lines, so please don't use that as an explanation for non-papered breeding.

And your example of "farmer joe" in reference to any breeding program is one and the same. Every "papered" pure bred was at one time some ones "best" something. Especially the German Shepherd.

I just find some of the personal stances and the clubs rules are some what close minded. When there are ways to expand, with out diminishing the 'pureness' of the source.

Having to hunt down three generations, and then having to prove it, and paying for them- for a puppy who's litter did not get registered, is a little inane, when a simple blood test can tell if it is a "pure blooded animal".

That's my negative two cents.

I am not against a registry. I am not against papered or un-papered breeders or owners.

I just hate to see a good dog underestimated because it lacks a recorded pedigree.

And I dislike even more so that a recorded animal that is not worth the paper its registered with, will still be sold and bred because of those papers.

When by scientific means any animal can have its true origins traced with a simple blood test. But that test wont be recognized by some organizations.
 
#11 ·
But you can not tell me, that with out GENETIC testing, that just by the 'papers' you KNOW that you are making a better dog.
Can a breeder "know"? Well, no, not with absolute certainty. There are no 100% guarantees. However they can make a very, VERY educated guess which far more often than not is going to be correct. Not perfect, but certainly far better than chance.

I could list off several dozen dogs and bloodline combinations that will 9 chances out of 10 produce a health problem or temperament problem. But without the papers, there would be no way of knowing that one of those disastrous combinations was present in the line. So while a breeder can't know for certain that they won't produce a problem, they can know for certain that they have put a whole lot of effort into trying to prevent that from happening and more often than not they will succeed.

As for your other complaints related to AKC, well for starters the "guess the breed" genetic tests are very inaccurate. Just search some threads here on the board where people have had their dogs tested and look at the results. There is no truly reliable genetic test that can say a dog is of a given breed.

AKC IS just a recordkeeping organization. They have NO control over what happens with the breeds. All of that is up to the breed clubs. They make the rules that apply to their breed, including what the standard says. AKC just follows what the breed club tells them to do. So when people want to complain about the state of the GSD in AKC venues, interpretation of the standard by judges, lack of breedworthiness requirements like some other countries have, it is wholly wrong to lay that blame on the AKC. Blame the GSDCA if you must blame someone as they make the rules and AKC just follows them.
 
#12 ·
What Chris said.

I will add, though, that while breeding a dog with your country's breed club's registration does not make you a good breeder, breeding companion animals without any registration papers does make you a bad breeder. The dog is what he or she is. Having papers or not does not make the dog good or bad. Breeding a dog with a questionable ancestry is irresponsible.

It is too easy to get a dog with AKC registration. People breeding dogs without AKC registration are either breeding dogs that they picked up cheap from pounds don't alter, rescues that don't alter, breeders who breed unpapered dogs, breeders who do not give papers or sell on a limited registration because the litter was a trial or mistake. Producing a litter that does not have AKC, here in the states, limits your puppies to owners who do not care about papers or your reasons for breeding an unpapered dog. I just don't think you will find the best possible homes for puppies that have owners that do not care anything about their background.
 
#22 ·
I will add, though, that while breeding a dog with your country's breed club's registration does not make you a good breeder, breeding companion animals without any registration papers does make you a bad breeder. The dog is what he or she is. Having papers or not does not make the dog good or bad. Breeding a dog with a questionable ancestry is irresponsible.

It is too easy to get a dog with AKC registration. People breeding dogs without AKC registration are either breeding dogs that they picked up cheap from pounds don't alter, rescues that don't alter, breeders who breed unpapered dogs, breeders who do not give papers or sell on a limited registration because the litter was a trial or mistake. Producing a litter that does not have AKC, here in the states, limits your puppies to owners who do not care about papers or your reasons for breeding an unpapered dog. I just don't think you will find the best possible homes for puppies that have owners that do not care anything about their background.
Wow! let me just say that I find your last sentence to be rude and insulting. Yup, my pup is from a BYB and I get some of the opinions here on the forum. But to assume she isn't in the "best possible home" is just a bad assumption on your part.

We have had 4 dogs over the last 28 years. The 1st was a GS mix we got from an ad in the local paper. We got her from a filthy, grease soaked, dirt floor garage. She was free. She was the best dog I ever owned. She was healthy, intelligent and so loyal. She was the guardian of my children. She was well cared for. She was spayed. She was kept in a clean warm home. She slept in bed with us. She was squirelly during storms. She slipped out on a stormy night and in the heavy fog she was hit by a car on my own street. I still blame myself and it took my nearly 5 years to get over the loss. She was the most spoiled, loved, well cared for companion.

Next came a supposed GS mix that was a total nightmare. Yup, your point made... poor breeding and no known ancestry. That said, we did everything we could for him and spent a lot of time and money trying to help him overcome his bad genetics. He was fed quality food, great vet care for all his odd issues. Training classes to try to help with his aggression issues. Neutering...the whole nine yards. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to be saved and for him and my children's safety we had him PTS. Even though he was a nightmare we loved that stupid mutt with all his crossed wired aggressiveness. He got the best.

Then there was our two beautiful fun loving Chow/Samoyed mix littermates. Origin: my neighbors brothers AKC Samoyed bitch allowed to be tied out while in heat not once but 3 times before he finally spayed her. Sire was a roaming black Chow. Again, wonderful dogs. And again, given the best loving home with best vet care, high quality food, tons of love. Of the 5 pups in the litter 4 stayed on my street. So, I watched them all grow and saw the care they got. None were abused but the quality of food and overall care was not the same for them all. Genetics...they all developed severe arthritis in the front shoulders and stifles. My two lived the longest (13 & 14 yrs). In the last year of there lives we spent over $6000.00 in vet/health care to give them the best quality of life in their senior years. And with each we made the difficult decision to end their pain and suffering and give them peace at our loss of their companionship.
Now we have our BYB GSD. She is only 5 months old and has already cost us a bit of money at the vet. She has at this point minor health issues (food allergies) that seem to be ever so common with this breed. And, again, We love her to death. She is a good puppy. She gets good vet care. We have spent a small fortune trying to find the right food for her. She is getting great private training from a very reputable trainer. She gets plenty of play time and daily walks twice a day. She is hugged and loved. She has the "best, loving home"

So, please don't assume that because the lineage of my dogs has mostly been unknown to me (and I don't much care about it), that they are not in the best home possible. It is offensive!

And, you are also basically saying that anyone who has rescued a dog is not providing them with the best home, as well. Solely based on the fact they don't know the dogs lineage and ancestry. Hateful words if IMO!

End of my rant.
 
#15 ·
I like to use Ozzy as my example a lot. (Maybe I should just save what I post somewhere so I don't have to type it out every time).

I did get him from a BYB. He has no papers, but he's a Pomeranian.
No, he's not to standard, as far as physical conformation goes.
He's a happy-go-lucky, confident, very biddable little dog. He has excellent ball drive and is outwardly healthy.
Pomeranians, per standard, are basically companion dogs. He is everything I could have ever dreamed of having in a Pom, and then some. When I leave him alone, even for the shortest time period (a 2 minute potty break, for example) he always greets me with enthusiasm and just JOY. I'm the center of his world.

To top it off, he has sport titles. (Earning some more as I type this, actually).

However, even if I did all the health testing on him recommended for Poms, I would NEVER breed him.
I have no idea what his ancestry is. I don't know if there's slipped kneecaps, aggression, epilepsy, skin conditions that can plague Poms for the entirety of their life, etc. that he could possibly pass onto his puppies. Not something I would ever risk, nor be able to forgive myself if a puppy and its owner suffered with such problems because I decided to breed my AWESOME dog whose lineage is unknown.
 
#16 ·
I know there are better tests available. The Arabian Horse Registry uses one and they will accept a non-papered horse that "blood tests" pure.

And they send you the test kit and you return it to the lab with the VET drawing the blood from each animal and signing off on it.

They can even determine how much Polish, American, Russian or Egyptian breeding is in each horse by the blood.

If they accept the testing, why is it that other clubs will not?

And in the Arabian Horse registry program Every horse must be blood tested or it can not be registered at all.

And yet the AKC DNA testing is optional, and genetic testing (supposedly unreliable) for "pure blooded-ness" is not accepted at all.

I find it a little hanky with the AKC.



And the comment about the breed clubs making the standards and the AKC not being to blame for their choices to represent those club standards is sort of passing the blame about.

If each club has it's set standards, and the AKC has them ALL listed on their site. And yet during shows picks what they feel is the best representation of the that Breed Clubs standards, then they are at fault when a breed winner is less than it's clubs standards.

Perhaps the AKC should choose Judges for each breed instead of tossing all breeds into one type of show.

Yes I do know that some shows are breed specific. And that others are looking for specific traits in the dogs.

But I look at the AKC champion's for German shepherds and over the years it has changed so drastically that I feel today's representation of the line is nearly crippled.

Yes I do realize that there are working and show lines. Perhaps I am subjecting the AKC to much criticism, or perhaps expecting more from them then they offer.

Again all this is my opinion.
 
#19 ·
I know there are better tests available. The Arabian Horse Registry uses one and they will accept a non-papered horse that "blood tests" pure.

They can even determine how much Polish, American, Russian or Egyptian breeding is in each horse by the blood.

If they accept the testing, why is it that other clubs will not?

And in the Arabian Horse registry program Every horse must be blood tested or it can not be registered at all.
I think there might be some misunderstanding of how the AHA uses this technology?

In order for the Arabian Horse Association (AHA) to issue registration papers on an unregistered horse, the parent horses must themselves be in the registration bank, either through blood typing or DNA. I can't remember off hand if it is blood typing for all horses born before 2002 and DNA for all horses born after 2002, or if the 2202 date related to real or attempted registrations and not births.

So I can purchase (or breed) an unregistered Arab, and contact the AHA and submit the hair sample for DNA identification. If that horse's relative's samples aren't in the bank, I am out of luck. They will not register the horse. They are not able to look at a blood sample and type it as a purebred Arab, unless the horses that horse is related to are in the file bank. You can't "test pure" unless there are known samples on file to match to. And it is the match itself to known, registered horses that is the key to registration.

Regarding being able to identify what "type" or line of Arab from the DNA? No. They can't do that from the sample (hair for DNA or blood for blood typing). What they can do is find a match within the file bank, and being matched to those horses can tell you what lines those horses are connected to.

My Arabian gelding is almost 100% Polish lines. His actual blood doesn't show any differences from a horse from Egyptian lines, or Russian lines. Blood is blood. There is no special marker found in the blood that says my gelding is Polish. However, his blood is matched to the horses he is related to. And because we know what their lines are, we know what his lines are.
Sheilah
 
#18 ·
The judges are commissioned by the breed club, and the breed clubs then hire them. The AKC is in charge of hundreds of breeds. If the people tell them of abuses by a specific judge they may be able to do something, but it is really the breed club that is more responsible of how judging is done.
 
#23 ·
I believe you get what you pay for in both scenarios.

Registered Dogs provide a amazing amount of information that can be helpful in general dog health as well as future breeding if desired.

Unregistered dogs need not be deemed undesirable SOLELY based on lack of papers & documentation.

There can also be extremes & irresponsibility w/ both sides. IMO (obviously) it depends on what you are looking for.

Take me for example. I bred my unpapered GSD w/ a papered GSD. I've known our stud since he was born, we were well aware of his and our GSDs medical details. And we choose to sell the pups for a minimal fee - only because, I personally would not take a "free" GSD - b/c to me, in most cases, that implies a lack of appreciation for what the seller has. (which is a whole 'nother topic) - that being said, I will NOT make a profit. I have all the pups new homes already waiting, they are apprised daily on the going ons & will be signing, general contracts.

The individuals getting our pups were all researched (if not already close friends), and they are not looking for dogs (again, obviously) to show. Most want a playmate for a current GSD or just a good quality dog for their rural properties. One will be doing K9 training.

All that to say, people get what they pay for - if a buyer isn't willing to find a reputable seller, and pays too much for a less than quality dog, that is their fault & can happen w/ either situation. But I do believe you can find a QUALITY GSD w/out papers ( I have one laying at my feet right now :wub: )...

So in short, I too have a disdain for individuals who automatically assume someone asking for breeding advice is irresponsible. That is not the case, or they would not be asking. AND I really despise those who continually try to push their off direct topic opinions on others. (anywhere not just here).

//end rant LOL
 
#25 ·
Thank you for the information on the Judging practices and how they pick them.

And it was before (they had us start Blood typing in the early 90's)2002 they did Blood typing and after it was DNA testing for Arabian Horses.

Yes, they can tell if your animal is pure blooded or not with out parental markers. Arabians, Barbs and Barb-Arabians as well as Mustangs to name a few have specific markers in their blood. Texas A&M as well as Cal-Poly Davis have been doing it for years.

Just like blood testing American Indians. Who also have a specific marker within their blood that will tell how much Indian heritage they have. They can tell to a specific degree.

All blood specimens have specific markers and can be identified to hereditary race/s.

I think the only questions would be, what are your 'source' materials and how well/good are the laboratories performing the testing.

And I question any procedure that does not have a veterinarian( or another 'official' being) taking the 'samples' and signing off on the information provided.

I just hoped that every one could not be so black or white, there is a grey and Science offers ways to clarify unknowns.

I just think a lot of registries do not want to know they -muffed- up with papers when breeders lied, or had a mistaken 'hook-ups' or what ever had possibly happened.

I know That many people are true to anything they partake in.
But not everyone is upstanding..

It just saddens me to hear so many hard care "paper" people say that anything else, is less. When the start of every breed was not pure to begin with.

And some practices currently taking place are weakening many breeds.

And I am not saying that every animal should be bred, or not bred or culled or fixed or euthanized.

Everything is a case-by-case basis.
 
#26 ·
I only researched the start of the GSD breed. And if you read Max's book, one thing is definitely true, this guy had means, intelligence, and dedication that unfortunately is lacking these days. He was a lot of things, and he researched a LOT of breeds, and dogs. He had a lot of people on board, that took his dogs, and worked with them and worked under his guidlines for many years.

The thing is, the breed is here now. We have a stud book and our dogs can be traced back to those dogs that the captain owned. Why would we want to go backwards and bring back in unknown dogs, owned by people who do not have the resources that the founder of the breed had, nor the rule that he had of the breed club, who is bred, who is not bred, what lines can go forward, what will be removed completely, and just throw up our hands and say, the breed is so pathetic, why not breed mongrels in? They were all mongrels in the beginning.

Without papers, for breeding purposes, they are mongrels. There is no knowing who is behind that dog and what it brings to the tea party.
 
#29 ·
Yes but the Iditarod people are breeding for a purpose, and have been breeding their dogs for a purpose for many generations. They know their lines. Similar to the farmer breeding his cow dog to create another amazing cow dog, he is breeding for a purpose. Guide dogs are often not purebred, but again are bred for a very specific purpose and the people breeding them know their lines. The only purpose Joe Blow down the street is breeding for is producing puppies - whether it be their dog is 'just such a nice dog' or they want to make money. There is no legitimate purpose in most cases and they don't know the lines. In a breed that is riddled with health and temperament problems I believe it is completely unethical to breed without knowing what you are breeding.

As for the 'irresponsible owners owning byb dogs', I see it as byb breeders will sell their dogs to most anyone who has a good story and wants a puppy and has the money to purchase that puppy. They generally do not screen everyone as thoroughly, and generally do not follow up on those dogs for their lifetimes.

For example:

A lady I knows breeds boxers. In the time I have known her she has produced 5 or so litters out of three dogs. Charges $850 per pup and each litter had 8 or so pups so she is making about $6800 per litter. She feeds crap food, does not health test her dogs and does no training with them. She does 'screen' buyers, or at least seems to when you know nothing about dogs and are buying your first puppy. Over the years I have seen her dogs offspring in the pound. I have met them on the street and they have been re homed twice in their first year. Some have severe temperament problems, some have severe skin problems. And she just lost her foundation bitch to a cancer that is common in boxers yet is still 'continuing the lines'. Do you think she has contacted all the puppies out of that bitch and told them that they may carry the gene for that cancer?

A man that I know breeds Olde English Bulldogges. He bought father and daughter and has bred them together, but 'that's ok because that's what all the good breeders do'. In his litter her produced blues - for which he charged $4200 per blue puppy. He sold them to pretty much whoever had the money for them. Every person who bought one of these puppies believed he was a wealth of knowledge on dogs and this breed - to the point that they all pronounce the breed name wrong (haha). The puppies turned a year old in march (I know all of these dogs very well) and every single one of them has problems. So far no major health problems but aggression and temperament issues galore. The father recently gave one of the owners 30 stitches to their forearm. One of the puppies is MIA, the couple that bought it broke up and the 'breeder' knows what kind of an owner the boyfriend that kept the dog is but do you think he tried to contact him at all to get the puppy back. He has no interest in having that dog - it isn't blue.

Just because these people do not pump out litter after litter does that make them ethical breeders? Their dogs live in the house, are loved (to some degree or other) and have yards to play in. The puppies are raised in the kitchen. These people seem to show genuine care and seem to be knowledgeable, unless you know about proper breeding and you see through their cracks.

There are many, many unethical registered breeders, I won't argue that, but there are too many unregistered dogs in desperate need of homes to be producing more dogs without a purpose.

Just my humble opinion.
 
#33 · (Edited)
There is a HUGE difference between registration papers (which is what the word "papers" actually refers to), and pedigrees.

Even mushers have pedigrees on their dogs. That's how you trace and understand lineage.

By the way, DNA testing for dogs? Doesn't work. All the places that offer it for "breed identification" clearly state it is for entertainment purposes only. People have tested their purebreds only to have their DNA results come back as a mix of a bunch of ridiculous things (like a GSD that had Pharaoh Hound, Chow, and Labrador in the results).
 
#37 ·
Alaskans are a landrace. But yes, they DEFINITELY have pedigrees. There is not set "type" at all...they're all over the map in looks, size, markings.

As long as they're healthy and can pull a sled, they're a good dog.
 
#41 · (Edited)
There is not set "type" at all...they're all over the map in looks, size, markings.

As long as they're healthy and can pull a sled, they're a good dog.
When I used the word "type" I was referring to functionality. The "type" mushers are looking for is based on how well they do the job required of them. Although, that said, I think size is somewhat set. You don't see many huge racing Alaskan Huskies. Freight types would be bigger. The Targee Hound was said to be a mix that included deer hounds, and the Targee Hound is said to be included in some of the modern Alaskan Husky lines. There is that to consider, but I think for the most part the ideal type is moderate in size for distance racing dogs.

It is really very interesting. There is a man that lives here in my little town who races sled dogs. It is fascinating to chat with him.
Sheilah
 
#38 ·
I read a very famous best seller - hated it BTW!!! - but the backstory of the novel was about a man who wanted to create his own breed of dog...the breeder had no "papers" but the pedigrees and the knowledge behind them for 3 generations of the breeders were very very detailed and breedings done very very specifically....the dogs did appear to be bred from GSD as well - not yellow labs as the covers showed LOL

The point being that breeding should be selective, not random...without knowing the pedigree of the dogs you have no idea what genetic problems you may be passing on or creating...I know of some very very very nice young dogs being trained for future K9 work who are purebred, but there are no papers....it is a shame, because the sire is a super individual would definitely be a prospective stud dog if he had been registered......but his potential as a sire is a dead end because he has no papers....we can guess all day long about his pedigree, but because of a greedy broker, the buyer was not given the dogs papers....and coming through a big big importer, who knows if the dog even really came with it's actual papers....

Lee
 
#39 ·
Nx,
I agree with you completely. I feel like in order for our breed to go forward we should only breed the strongest and absolute best. If an animal is less than perfect then it should be loved and taken care of but not bred. My girl is a perfect example of that, she has floppy ears and even though her lineage looks good on paper she has some minor character flaws also. Does it make her useless and unlovable? Heck no, it just makes her a pet and not a work or show dog and she will never have a litter of puppies. I expect her to have a long and happy life living among my wife and I and hope she eventually overcomes her little quirks. But I love that dog with all my heart and will do anything to keep her happy and comfortable as long as she lives. She reciprocates with me by offering her unconditional love and affection to me every day. I'm pretty happy with the deal and would not change it one bit. Papers or no, she is my dog and that's all that really matters to me.

Wheelchair Bob
 
#42 ·
I do not want to start a flaming war.
Or bad feeling among the boards followers and members.

But I do have some strong opinions on statements made about BYB and supposedly accredited AKC breeders.

I have read statements such as "if it is not papered you do not breed it".

And I totally agree that Puppy Mills are absolutely terrible.

However, I have seen (yes, with my own eyes) AKC breeders that have absolutely terrible dogs that they breed simply because- A: it has papers and/or B: it has some "high profile" AKC sire/bitch/grandsire/grandbitch in it's linage.

Not only have the dogs been poor in one or another type; confirmation, color, and/or temperament; they have been over used as breeding stock. I mean too old, or by having too many litters.
Simply because they have papers, or some great well known dog in it's background.

I have also seen BEAUTIFUL dogs that have no papers because some where along the line a breeder did not want to pay to have the litter papered. And for a new puppy owner to have to pay for an entire litter to get papers for ONE puppy is ridiculous. (yes I have had to hunt down previous breeders to paper my animals)

I also think (in my own opinion) that the AKC standard for many breeds of dogs have been so Skewed over the years that most breeds no longer show their true forms.

Now, please do not take the previous statement as me against the AKC or papered animals. It is not. If I find a GOOD papered dog I'll gladly pay for what I feel is a decent animal with a decent price tag.

But you can not honestly say that if it is not papered it is not a good dog, or that if you are not an accredited AKC breeder then you are not a good breeder. Or even a good presentation for the Dogs standard.

And assuming that most buyers are uneducated in Breed standards or too cheap to buy a Papered animal is I think another insensitivity to them. Some people just want a nice looking, well tempered dog with out the HIGH PRICE associated with Papered animals. They don't plan on showing or breeding. Many just want an affordable nice looking puppy.

Perhaps Breeders who feel the AKC/papers and blood line information is so very important should consider pricing animals more appropriately for what the animal and potential owner are able to do. Instead of/or because the puppy came from so-an-so and has so many accomplished ancestors in it's linage.

Yes I do know and I do agree with limited registrations and Spay/Neuter contracts with puppies.

I utterly agree with spay/neuter(and even in some cases euthanizing) any animal that is potentially pet only or has some physical, mental(euthanizing) or conformational defect.

But I think as a whole community here and for positively promoting the German Shepherd breed, many comments should be stated on a case by case basis and not in an all-or-nothing mind frame/format.

And on a side note:
I have noted a great many of new members who ask for help, in many different forms, from understanding breed standards, mentality, feeding, training and Breeding/Whelping who are given scathing replies that do not help either the original poster or the German Shepherd reputations.

I feel that any one asking for help is doing a positive thing for themselves and their animal.


//end rant.

I kind of agree with your post. I've never paid more then $450 for a GSD and so far have had extremely good dogs. But I don't go in blindly. I think for the person who just buys a dog, throws them out in the backyard, Bad BYB's and puppy mills are happy to provide them with such dogs.

I think, when the ones your directing this thread at comment that you should always buy from a "Reputable Breeder", what they are actually saying is for the buyer to investigate and see why those dogs are more expensive and why they are labeled reputable breeders. They just are trying to do what they think is right by the breed. There seems to be a high mortality rate in recent years due to illnesses and hereditary health issues due to POSSIBLE illresponsible breeding practices by some BYB's and puppy mills to make a quick buck.

Anytime you open the paper, look in the dog section, there may be one or two good BYB's out of maybe six or seven total advertisements for GSD's. It's sad because, maybe not all "reuptable" breeders are not responsibly breeding, there are many more in numbers who through a lower price, push this much harder.

Also on the other hand, reputable breeders, though I understand why they charge much more for thier dogs, set the stage for bad breeders to come in and make that fast buck. They make it way to easy to do this as do local state laws. I know breeders don't like to pay higher taxes or fee's or liscenses to breed, but it's about the only way you can curb none serious breeders from breeding sub-par dogs. They just won't be able to afford it, it would shut the door to places like petland and other pet stores. But I've seen breeder fight such things and here they still set there getting undercut by shady scum breeders in it only for the money. You have to price them out. If that means dog prices go up, then they go up. In the larger picture if not everyone has a GSD because of the cost to buy a reputable one, then whats the harm? Maybe thats what the breed needs.

In my opinion, there are things that can be done at the state level to put most if not all puppymills and none serious breeders out of buisness. But it will take the reputable breeders to get together, set down and work out a plan with representatives to get laws passed and procedures in place with fines inacted to make it not worth bad breeders to do buisness. It would not keep every one of them down but it may slow down the bad breeding practices. You also basically taking the low price GSD's out of the picture on a large scale. You can't control Bob getting together with Bill to make a small backyard litter. But you can make it hard for them to disperse that litter, and that alone should discourage them from doing it in the first place.
 
#43 ·
We went on an Alaskan Cruise 3 years ago, and one of the shore excursions we did was a sled dog summer camp. It was very interesting! To keep the dogs exercised in the summer when there's no snow, they have carts that run on roads. In this picture they're hooking the dogs up to the cart we're going to ride in, and beyond that you can see the other cart:



And we're off!



Got to play with some puppies too:

 
#44 ·
Ok every one. I sorta skipped some posts, I scanned them, but did not read too deeply into the "Sled dogs" and what not .. please don't take offense, but other than learning that they are not recognized "breed" by the AKC and that their owners/breeders maintain their "Pedigree's" in their own hand or minds... I left the other information to the way -side.

Now.. I don't want to go read through every post AGAIN to comment directly to each individual poster (as I HAVE READ the entire thread and HAD a post made up for EVERY ONE and because I took too long to Post, the forum 'lost' it in my re-log in prompts.)

So.. I will simply go like so:

I have no burr up my hiney about my Animals Documentation status with the AKC or any other Registration club.

Papers, IMO, do not MAKE the dog/animal.

Now, speaking of documentation and possible verification of Pedigree through a registration club/society:
Just because "some one" says that an animal is "By" so-and-so does not make it a fact.
When there are definitive ways to ensure that "Breeders" are honest about their "herds/stock" as well as the ability for a club/society to ensure that the "breed" is in fact PURE... I do find fault with ANY club/Society that offers "DNA" testing for parental verification as OPTIONAL.

And yes, there are places that offer blood testing to verify "Breed". Look at Texas A&M and Cal Poly-Davis.

Hate to burst another bubble, but blood testing can determine your "origin race" AS WELL AS YOUR parental markings.

So yes, a blood test could define if you are Johnson from Smith and if you are Spanish from Anglo-Saxon. And to what degree you are of each Race and Parental linage.

Speaking of Dogs that become "un-registered pure-breds" and how they fall through the cracks:
I have found MANY "Reputable Kennels" who sell their stock at LOWER prices WITHOUT documentation. Why?
1 example: Because they do not want to pay for the LITTER REGISTRATION fee's for some one else's (new owners) dog.

2 example: As well as selling animals that they have not been able to find a home at their ASTRONOMICAL prices, so they limit the new owner by not offering papers or offering limited registrations.
Like punishing some one who wants their animals for a reasonable price.

3. example A person who bought a LIMITED REGISTERED animal and then breeds, unable to then register their litter in ANY WAY.

Rescue's, City/County Pounds and the Humane Society Spay/Neuter all animals that come through their doors, pure-bred or no. So using that as an "excuse" is absolutely inane. Stop trying to use it.

And please STOP shuffling every act of "Un-registered Pure-bred" owner/Breeders as neglectful, irresponsible, poor care giving people that are RUINING 'what-ever' breed.

Because, the shoe fits both parties: Registered breeders and un-registered breeders...

I have seen Papered animals that should NEVER have been bred.. or have the rights to be shown in any Club/Society that are papered up the to the hilts. And those names on their PEDIGREE were the ONLY reason that the animal was "Prized" and bred.

And I have seen Wonderful Un-Papered Animals that would wipe the floor with some "well-papered" animals.

This post was to better understand why members here are so black and white when it comes to Registration papers.
Why the scathing replies to those who have un-registered animal, and even, worse so to those who have un-registered animals that they breed.

I fully understand the documentation on "pedigree" and the value of it for 'knowing' what you may be breeding into your stock. And I thank you to all who clarified this further in their replies.

I wish to thank every one who stood back emotionally and took my Thread in a "Discussion" format.
I meant absolutely NOTHING PERSONAL to any one in any of my statements. And if I some how offended you, Personally, I did not intend such.

Every one has the right to their opinion, and the right to state it. And I will protect your rights to speak freely, but, I do not have to agree with you or your opinions.

I just wished to hear why some of the members feel the way they do and what they verify their feelings with. That was all.



Thank You, and if I missed anything specific I'm sorry and you can "poke" me with your comment(post a reply) if you want to experience my reply.
 
#45 ·
Speaking of Dogs that become "un-registered pure-breds" and how they fall through the cracks:
I have found MANY "Reputable Kennels" who sell their stock at LOWER prices WITHOUT documentation. Why?
1 example: Because they do not want to pay for the LITTER REGISTRATION fee's for some one else's (new owners) dog. It costs $30 + $2 per puppy. So if your bitch had 7 puppies, the litter is registered for $44. If your breeder isn't willing to register the litter, isn't willing to shell out $44, then I would not be willing to pay even $25 for a puppy from that, even if they claim the pop to be a k9, guide dog, grand champion -- doesn't matter.

2 example: As well as selling animals that they have not been able to find a home at their ASTRONOMICAL prices, so they limit the new owner by not offering papers or offering limited registrations. Limited registration should be used to sell pups with a conformation fault, disqualifying fault, so that the pups are not bred and do not carry forth that fault to their progeny. It doesn't prevent the dog from breeding, but it prevents the litter from being registered so that the fault is not carried forward in registered dogs.

If the breeder does not feel the people are a good choice to get a dog for breeding purposes and they do not want to show the dog, they might offer the dog with NO papers. Usually, these people have an option to return to the breeder with titles, and health checks on their dog at which time they can be granted papers, or some breeders allow people to pay the difference and get the papers. If you want a dog from breeding, you shouldn't start out by paying less for a dog that doesn't have papers.

Like punishing some one who wants their animals for a reasonable price.

3. example A person who bought a LIMITED REGISTERED animal and then breeds, unable to then register their litter in ANY WAY. Right. That is what SHOULD happen. A LIMITED REGISTRATION means that puppies out of that bitch or dog CANNOT BE BRED. If you want to breed, don't buy a dog on a limited registration. EASY. It is not rocket science folks.

Rescue's, City/County Pounds and the Humane Society Spay/Neuter all animals that come through their doors, pure-bred or no. So using that as an "excuse" is absolutely inane. Stop trying to use it.

Nope, wrong again. Rescues are only as good as the individuals running them. Some rescues maintain breeding bitches and have multiple litters with them, and sell the puppies. Also, not all pounds/shelters are government funded, and some of them STILL send pups out on a promise to spay/neuter.
Ok, can't address it all, but I want to tell you a first-person story. I have a pup out there. She went for the stud fee, and changed hands when that person had a major heart attack. The individuals never paid for the two dogs they took. They gave my girl to a buddy, who will most likely breed her. She currently has no papers because her OWNER has not given them up to the thieves that stole her.

But people like you, will say that papers aren't important, she was probably sold on a limited registration because the breeder wanted to punish the people for not paying full-price.

People actually STEAL pure-bred dogs and sell their puppies with junk papers or no papers at all. They use every excuse in the book as to why the litter can't be registered. My favorite is that the pop is a K9 and they can't get papers. The k9s out there must never do any work because they are all VERY busy siring litters of unregistered dogs.

The AKC CAN do DNA on a litter at the request of a puppy buyer, and determine if the parentage is correct. If they do so, and you falsified your papers, you will be suspended for 10 years or life. Read the AKC GAZETTE, they have in the back the discipline of people that they have revoked the registration of their dogs, etc. It is breeder-suicide to knowingly falsify a litter registration.
 
#46 ·
Papers do not make a good dog, I agree. I also agree that there are TONS of good dogs without papers.

However, as a buyer who is paying for a life companion and choosing a pure bred dog, I value that my dog has papers.

The paper guarantees that the lineage of my dog is tracked by SOMEONE other than the breeder. So when this breeder claims that their dogs come from a line of champions, working dogs, etc, I can obtain independent evidence to corroborate the statement. This increases the transparency of the lineage and history of each dog and improves the non-balance of information between a dog buyer (who has never lived with the dog, worked with his ancestors, etc) and the breeder (who may have had experience with other dogs in a particular dog's line).

If I had intimate knowledge of a dog (such as the farmer who breeds his cattle dog for work), the papers would not matter to me. However, given that in most cases, I will be a consumer with limited contact with the breeder's breeding dogs, the papers provide more info.


Finally, I'm sorry, but I'm spending money on a dog that will be in my life for 10 years. Is a non-papered puppy really worth my time when there are HUNDREDS of well-bred papered or THOUSANDS of other paperless dogs waiting in shelters for me?
 
#53 · (Edited)
Lol it's not making me a better owner by posting but def by reading. I learned a huge amt.

But in defense of people that didn't learn I want to say that you sometimes don't realize the need to research.

I didn't know GSDs had problems, I thought I can get any dog and he will be fine. There are many other things I didn't think of.

Lack of papers to me meant that the people didn't register the dogs. That's it.

I'm just showing you how people think. I love to read and that's how I end up on different forums reading tons of diff stuff. But many people don't. Who can fault them?

They have no problems and they have no need to research.

That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying dogs should be bred without papers. I'm just explaining that good homes can be ignorant and that shouldn't be held against them.


Not everyone ends up learning.

ETA even the best homes can be ignorant. How do you measure what's a good home and what's the best home?

If I don't know about breed problems but take my dog to the vet for any problems it develops, can that make me not the best home (not me personally)?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
 
#56 ·
Not everyone ends up learning.

ETA even the best homes can be ignorant. How do you measure what's a good home and what's the best home?

If I don't know about breed problems but take my dog to the vet for any problems it develops, can that make me not the best home (not me personally)
?

Sent from Petguide.com Free App
No. The good homes will take a dog to the vet for any problem it develops.

The best homes will take the dog to the vet when it needs to go, and will work with the vet to find the problem. They will have some knowledge and resources from a breed standpoint. They will listen to the vet and ask good questions. They will know when to get a second opinion or to question the diagnosis, or how to find the information they need to know. In some cases, they will know what tests ought to be run, and what treatments they should avoid.

A dog I sold years ago was taken to the ER by her owner for a digestive issue and general malaise. Once the ER realised she was intact, they immediately suggested pyrometra and strongly suggested an immediate spay. The owner did not think that all the criteria suggested pyro, so the ER told her to leave her overnight, but if she spiked a fever, they would probably have to operate. In the morning they told her to take her to her regular vet and have her spayed ASAP.

She called me. I told her to take her to a clinic in her area that I am familiar with, that is 24 hour, has a lab, has ultrasound, x-ray, and has reproductive veterinarians on staff. I told her they could run tests and do an ultrasound and find out if it is indeed pyro. On route she called her vet and they said the same thing. She asked the ER when she picked the dog up whether taking her to the other clinic and having an ultrasound and other tests done could tell them whether or not it is pyrometra. They said no. But she took her there, and they did run the tests, and they did do an ultrasound, and they did rule out pyrometra and find the real issue. And, they also said that if they did do a surgery on her dog to spay her, they probably would not have found the problem and her dog could have been in serious trouble.

To me, the fact that she questioned, and followed through with getting better information from other sources and backed them up makes her a best home in that respect. Taking her to the ER makes her a good home -- she is taking care of her dog, good home. A best home goes the extra mile. Not every time the vet says something, but before we cut on our dog, if we know that somethings aren't lining up, then yes, we do not necessarily follow blindly.
 
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