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Old 01-16-2013, 02:07 PM   #201 (permalink)
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I wanted to get opinions regarding Heidi. She has still shown some aggression towards our other dog. Right now they are separated by a gate. Sasha is downstairs and Heidi is upstairs with the pups. The other day my husband was downstairs with Sasha and Heidi jumped over the fence when my husband started petting Sasha. I think Sasha was in the area where Heidi gave birth to the pups. We tested things out to see how they could be together, and while downstairs (again, the room that the pups were born in), Heidi was very interested in Sasha and what she was doing. And Sasha was obviously very nervous. So now we put Heidi in her crate when we take Sasha upstairs (she sleeps with my son) and Sasha in her cage if we take Heidi out (if we go thru the laundry room downstairs which we do if it's really cold).

My question is, if we get Heidi fixed, will any of this behavior subside? And if that done combined with training could potentially help? Or will there always be a tension between the two? My husband hopes that once she is spade, that they will magically get along. It still seems that Heidi is being protective of us? My son has stated that while he loves Heidi, he doesn't think her staying with us is good for Sasha too. We just feel incredibly guilty at the thought of not keeping her after all that has happened. If it were just my husband and me, I wouldn't even hesitate to keep her, but my son has seen so much, which is why I'm leaning towards re-homing Heidi. I just feel like I'm failing her

In other news, the pups are 4 weeks old today. Selzer, you were so right that pups are filthy. I try to keep they're area clean and it's nearly impossible. I have learned that I need to take them out too while I clean it, otherwise, they want to play or bite me and the newspaper, etc. They are fun if not disgusting.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:14 PM   #202 (permalink)
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I would not even try intros or to merge them while those puppies are there.
Whichever decision you make, you should either find a rescue who'll spay her, or spay her yourself, regardless.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:28 PM   #203 (permalink)
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So I shouldn't have the puppies interact or go near Sasha at all? I've read that puppies should be introduced to other dogs, and animals if at all possible. I thought I could take Heidi for a walk while they 'meet' Sasha (supervised of course). Or I shouldn't even attempt it at all?
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:33 PM   #204 (permalink)
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I really wouldn't but maybe that is just me.
If there was a neutered male, MAYBE but not a dog the mom dog despises.
Are you advertising these puppies yet? Are you placing them yourself or enlisting the assistance of a rescue? Will the puppies be altered prior to placement? Do you have a contract you're using to place them? Taking apps?
I'm asking because (depending on where you live possibly) they should be already being advertised in preparation for when they turn 8 weeks.
That'll make life much easier for you, I am sure.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:46 PM   #205 (permalink)
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So far I haven't advertised or anything, I've been relying on word of mouth. Where do I advertise? And how much to charge? I don't want to give them away for free because I want to be sure the house they are going to is legit. Also would like to recoup *some* of my costs although there is no way I will be able to do that, so what is an acceptable price to ask?

I wasn't planning on altering all of them, just their 6 and 8 week vaccinations.
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Old 01-16-2013, 02:56 PM   #206 (permalink)
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If you don't have a plan, it would be my suggestion to enlist the help of a rescue near you. They could screen the homes and add a s/n clause. You will want all the puppies altered, prior to placement would be ideal, if not, then by the time the puppies are 6mo. of age.
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Even if you have to relinquish the puppies to them (for them to be altered) that would be best for them.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:49 PM   #207 (permalink)
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It is not best for the puppies to be altered before they leave you. Unfortunately it is the only way to ensure that the puppies are not bred. Just because these are rescued puppies does not mean that it isn't still better for them to be mature prior to altering them.

It is far cheaper to alter puppies as the amount of anesthetic needed is dependent on weight and so the price will go down significantly to alter babies. However, the hormones that you are removing do make a difference to growth and many people think longevity as well.

Altering these puppies yourself will still run you into costs that, frankly, you don't deserve, and it is very likely that you will not recoup those costs for what you can charge for the puppies. On the other hand, you really don't want anyone to go through what you went through with this girl.

I think whelping and raising this litter has been more than what anyone would be expected to do, and you are doing great with that. Having a good rescue help place the puppies may help find the best homes for the puppies, though if you do have people showing an interest in the puppies, you might decide on whether or not they will be good homes yourself.

As for the bitches, there is no chance at all at these two being compatible, while the one has puppies. So no, do not even try that. There is no point at all in trying to socialize the puppies to this other female. It is far better that the puppies have positive experiences, and you do not want the other bitch's smell on the puppies. Remember that dogs can smell a drop of urine in something like 1000 drops of water.

Good socialization experiences during this period are very, very good. Bad socialization experiences are very, very bad. If the other female were to frighten or hurt even inadvertently one or more of the puppies, that can be worse than simply allowing the bitch and pups enjoy each other's company. When the pups are placed, there is plenty of time for the puppies to get 1 on 1 socialization with other dogs.

Lastly, there is no way to ensure that your females will be buddies after all is said and done. Spaying can actually make things worse, or at least spaying can increase reactivity in dogs. On the other hand, spaying can remove the hormones that cause the bitch to go in heat and shakes up her system physically and behaviorally. So it is possible that it might make things different. Generally people encourage neutering for behavior issues in dogs, but do not encourage spaying for behavior reasons.

I think that maybe your best bet would be to find Heidi an awesome home and keep a male pup out of the litter. But if this whole experience has made you completely attached to the girl, crate/rotate, upstairs/downstairs might be in your future.

I think you need to think and discuss this with your husband, with the ideas of what is best for you and him, what is best for Sacha, and what is best for Heidi. Sometimes bitch-bitch does not work out, and even with a system in place to keep them separated, shtuff happens and the results might be serious vet/medical costs and even death of one or both of your furry charges.

I am sorry you are going through all of this.
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Old 01-16-2013, 03:58 PM   #208 (permalink)
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You can advertise them in the newspaper. Ours will both put it in print, and put it on line where you can add photos.

If you have a training club you can advertise there.

A local bulletin board, at the vet, drugmart or grocery store, a picture of the puppies and little strips with your phone number on it.

Best of all is word of mouth.

If you employ the help of a rescue, be sure to explain how you bought the female and when and that you had no idea she was pregnant until she started having babies. Some rescues can be very judgmental and you really don't deserve any flack over this. You might want to let them know that you will provide for them until they are placed in their forever home, so you are not planning on dropping off the puppies, but only want them to help you screen applicants. The rescue will likely charge and keep whatever their fee is, so I do not think you will be able to recoup your costs by going that route. But it may be the best way to find the best homes, depending on the rescue.
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Old 01-16-2013, 07:47 PM   #209 (permalink)
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check with your vet as well, sometimes there are clients who may have lost a dog and quietly looking for another..

I know how much you love Heidi but I don't think you'll ever be able to truly trust her around Sasha If it's stressing Sasha out, she was there first, your son loves her most?? I'd try to rehome Heidi...I do NOT think you are a failure at all, you've stepped up and gone above and beyond what one would do with a pregnant girl !

I like the rescue idea, (checking with a local rescue), also try your local AC they may know of people looking for a puppy.

If you advertise in the paper, I'd have a very thorough screening process with ANYONE you don't know,,vet references, personal references, and check out their homes.. As for charging for them,,I'm on the fence, I would first and foremost want GOOD homes for them, so for me, if they have exceptional homes, I'd probably give them away free, altho I wouldn't advertise "free"..

Maybe keep a puppy? Tough call it's certainly up to you all
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Old 01-17-2013, 07:18 PM   #210 (permalink)
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Thanks again, you have all really really helped. As much as we would like to keep Heidi, I don't think we can. I will have to prepare myself for judgment from family/friends. Have already gotten some from a couple people. It's not like we are taking this lightly, everyday I feel guilty about it. Yes, son is very attached to Sasha, so he's really worried she might get hurt or even vice versa. I also realize it's not all Heidi, I think Sasha is part of the problem since she tends to want to be alpha at times too. Maybe if they had met after Heidi had her pups? I will always wonder.

I contacted a rescue about Heidi, waiting to hear back, although she has to remain with pups til 8 weeks right? She still will only go near them to eat their poop. They go nuts when they see her and she leaves them in less than 30 seconds. She will nurse the runt though without complaint, although I imagine she will be drying up soon?

I get up earlier now to feed pups and so I was super tired this morning and cranky. I walked by pups who were playing and said hello. It was funny because they all stopped what they were doing for a second and then ran towards me at once. And then they started whining very loudly to eat. I'm actually surprised they haven't whined in the middle of the night actually

Anyway, thanks again and I'll keep you all posted and continue to post pix of pups.

Last edited by pinklady; 01-17-2013 at 07:25 PM. Reason: Can't type on phone
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