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Old 11-02-2007, 12:12 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Don't the decoys in ring work get points as well, for making the dog miss?
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Old 11-02-2007, 12:38 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Yes, in ring the decoy is supposed to try to screw the dog up and take points away from the dog at every opportunity. If that means working each dog differently in order to make it screw up, so be it. In SchH, the helper is supposed to provide even keeled, consistant work in order to allow the dog to be tested on a level playing field. The helper is supposed to give the dog every opportunity to earn the full 100 points, and from there it's up to the dog to show what he's got. Of course, the helper should never help the dog along, just make sure everything is done by the book so the dog has a fair chance. The two sports have two different ways of looking at it.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:14 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

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Originally Posted By: jarn

i have to admit, last month the police arrested a gang that was mugging and assaulting people in the park where i take the dogs to go potty (though we stay in one corner of the park) and i never worried b/c a)i don't carry valuables when we're out for a walk; b)i don't act like i'm scared (years of feeding and trapping feral cats in nasty downtown alleys (always wear shoes b/c of the needles) taught me that attitude is everything, and most people, other than drunks, will leave you alone if you leave them alone); and c)i had a large dog with me.

i guess i just don't worry about being in a situation where i'd need this, but you guys are really raising some good points, so thank you!
Jarn, I think you and I are very similar people. I do think attitude has alot to do with it.
I have never been a nervous person. When I finally got my own house, I got a labrador retriever. He is definitely not a protection dog. The only thing he is good for is alerting me to noise and maybe his bark would be a deterrant.

My bf has a GSD, Kaper. He was bred and trained to be a PSD, however, they had problems with his tracking and he did not pass his qualification.

I take Kaper running with me and I must say, I love the feeling. People literally cross the street when we are coming (any runners would know how sometimes people just don't want to share the sidewalk with you, no problems with that now). I love how alert he is to everything going on around us. I have never had a situation where he has had to act, but I do feel he would, just by the way he acts I seriously doubt anyone would try anything anyway. I never felt unsafe going on my own, but with him I feel really safe. Now when I take my lab, people will walk right up to him and pet him without even asking.

At home, Kaper is protective. I do believe that if someone came into the house, Kaper would act. If he didn't, he would at least let me know someone was there. And like someone already said, if someone keeps coming after hearing him bark (and Chatham too), I am in serious trouble.

I think in my city(East coast Canada), a PPD would be an excellent idea. We have a relatively low crime rate, break and enters are common but we have seen an increase in home invasions (ie, people are home when they break in) in the past couple of years. Not one that I know of had a dog. Most of the victims were older people who lived on their own. Some were even during the day. The people who did the invasions were drug users looking for some quick cash. I cant' remember how often they were armed. No guns that I know of. That is the ideal situation for a PPD whether he attacks or not. Like someone already pointed out, they are looking for an easy target. A barking dog, especially a large breed like GSD, is not something they want to contend with.
I would like to point out that these did happen in what one would consider "nice neighborhoods". Is it likely to happen around here, no, but no one is completely safe.

I didn't get a GSD for protection, but I definitely enjoy the thought of it.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:43 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

yup, a dog is (usually) helpful for clearing the sidewalk when running! i'd be lying if i said that wasn't nice

whereabouts down east are you? i have family from new brunswick (small place that doesn't really exist anymore, but a lot of family lives around petticodiac) and nova scotia (my dad grew up inland on a tidal river not far from the bay of fundy).

my area is getting worse - and i've noticed it since i got luc, i guess b/c i'm out more, even though i ran before. the street/drug activity has definitely increased, as has the obvious prostitution (still not bad i don't think, more that i've actually picked up on it). there was a shooting 200M from my house wednesday night, which bothers me since i walked teagan by the restaurant where it happened aobut 20minutes before hand. but there - i don't know that i feel protected by the dogs, but i would have been HORRIFIED if something had happened to teagan. that really bothers me. my neighbourhood is still largely a nice working class neighbourhood, but one of toronto's more notorious neighbourhoods is just south and it's gentrifying, so things change here. but i really do believe it's mostly attitude. if you act frightened, like a victim, then you'll be one. yes, anyone can get caught in crossfire, but as an overall deterent, attitude is good.

chris - does french ring have the same sort of obedience/tracking exercise SchH does? that's interesting they seem to have such different takes on the bitework.
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Old 11-02-2007, 02:54 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted By: jarn
chris - does french ring have the same sort of obedience/tracking exercise SchH does? that's interesting they seem to have such different takes on the bitework.
There is no tracking in french ring.
There is obedience but it is not as complicated as SchH, nor is the same level of precision required. It's more "does the dog mind" than "does the dog mind perfectly, always in correct position and showing enthusiasm and focus". Same goes for the obedience during the protection phase. Ring just requires basic control, not the level of precision needed in SchH. Ring also has some physical agility tests going over walls and jumps as in SchH, but the Ring obstacles are a bit more difficult (higher walls, etc..).

Some will argue the less strict obedience of Ring is more sensical and practical for "real life". Others will argue that the greater precision needed in SchH is a better test of temperament and training. Neither is necessarily more controlled than the other, just different rules and different expectations of the dog.

You can find the rules for both SchH and Ring on-line if you want the nitty gritty details and differences.
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Old 11-02-2007, 09:22 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Coming in late to this.

Yes, one trained PPD that also does SchH (it is possible) and at least one more that would do PPD and will be trained eventually. BUT I use them more as a deterrent. Anyone getting past them would face Mr. Colt or maybe Mr. Ruger.

I live in the middle of no where. I have GSD because I have always loved the breed. I train SchH because I love it. Do the PPD training for practical purposes and because it is something more to do with the dogs.
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Old 11-03-2007, 02:31 AM   #47 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Wow! Great questions, great answers! Not a day goes by that I don't learn new stuff on this board.

I do Schutzhund for fun, however I'd never consider my dog to be a protection dog. First, I didn't get her for that, I got her as a companion, and I see it as MY job to protect her. The visual deterent of a large dog is just a free bonus that came with the package.

If things got really sticky, mine would run (and I'd be right behind her!) That's fine with me. If I can't protect her, she has every right to try and protect herself.

Jarn, I'm wondering, on this other board, where there are so many PPD dogs, I wonder, how many of these dogs actually ARE trained protection dogs. How many people set out to find and buy a fully trained dog (which will cost probably 10,000 or more) and commit to maintenance training, or how many people did the intensive/time-consuming training themselves with a puppy acquired for specifically protection?

What I'm thinking is that there are a lot of people out there with nerve-bag fear-barkers at the end of the leash that bark blindly and histerically at anything that moves, and the owners, not knowing any different, brag about their "naturally protective, bad-a** protection dog. So are these protection dogs REAL protection dogs, or just dogs that act agressive, with no real training.
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Old 11-03-2007, 08:11 AM   #48 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Castlemaid- you hit the nail on the head. People think because their dog barks and might take a fear nip out of someone that the dog is protecting them. How many times do you hear people talking about their 6 to 10 month old pup protecting them? A lot, but a dog that young is just not mature enough to protect. The defense and fight drives are not there yet.

We have a lady at our club who has a bloodhound that she swears protects her kids. Yeah right. The dog is a slobbery sweetheart. It barks at strangers, thats all. My Dane pup does the same thing. Is it intimidating to have a dog that is over 6' tall on it's hind legs barking at you? Sure, but she'd never protect us. Just like the bloodhound, if you ran at her, she'd run away.

A guy at our club has a nice looking white GSD he rescued. It will never be a protection dog, but he keeps working him to try and get him better. He's doing a lot of things wrong, pushing the dog too far too soon, and he won't listen to the more experienced people when they give him advice, but what can you do. I've seen the dog go into complete avoidance when the decoy does so much as crack the whip. The dog will be running at the decoy, the decoy cracks the whip, the dog peels off to the side and never engages, just barks. The dog will try and take cheap bites, more to try and get the bad guy to go away, rather than to engage him. He sure barks up a storm, but he's like a 14 year old challenging someone to a fight- a lot of talk, and when go time comes, he really doesn't want to be there. Will that dog protect? In the sense that it's a big dog with a big bark and it will take a cheap shot chunk out of someone, and if that's what you call protection, yes. If someone challenged the dog? Not on your life.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:22 AM   #49 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Castlemaid

What I'm thinking is that there are a lot of people out there with nerve-bag fear-barkers at the end of the leash that bark blindly and histerically at anything that moves, and the owners, not knowing any different, brag about their "naturally protective, bad-a** protection dog. So are these protection dogs REAL protection dogs, or just dogs that act agressive, with no real training.
funny you should say that! i've been thinking maybe the same.

i noticed w/luc when we were having issues w/his territorial aggression, a lot of ppl (not GSD ppl necessarily, but other dog owners) didn't understand why it was a problem if he barked/growled at ppl in the park at night - that was 'what a GSD is supposed to do' and 'great situational awareness'.

but that makes no sense. if a therapy or assistance dog did that, albeit in a different context, i'm pretty sure they'd be judged as sharp/poor nerves and not good candidates for the program.

i really wonder if a lot of the protective behaviour - especially when it's casual - that people are so happy with isn't actually a sign of some issue w/their dog. i know GSDs are smart, but i'm not sure they are that smart. i don't know though - it seems a lot of people say 'they become protective around 2 yo' and are very happy with that behaviour.

i really wonder if that's good behaviour or if there are a lot of sharp dogs. i'm with you on that.
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Old 11-03-2007, 09:31 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild

Much of it is also breed tendencies. Mals as a whole are known to be fliers on long bites. But many of those fliers actually lack true commitment to the fight and are working mostly in prey. GSDs, who tend to be more likely to work out of aggression and have more commitment to fighting, generally don't fly through the air but rather launch straight into the helpers center of mass trying to bowl him over. And a Rottie, no matter how nice or serious it is, just isn't likely to be a flier. Rotties just aren't.

Also, dogs can be artificially taught to fly on courage tests by helpers always backing up at the last minute in training. Likewise, dogs can be discouraged from flying on courage tests by helpers who dodge them during training. A flying dog is an easy one for the helper to get out of the way of since the dog is in the air and already committed to it's trajectory. So training can also play a large part in what the dog does as he learns from experience what does and doesn't work.
I unintentionally ended teaching a Mali to fly on the bite suit. As I'm lighter the dog learned that if he charged with enough speed and strength and with a large leap he could easily knock me down and the he used the same tecnique in other decoys. So good the suit is cushioned, because I could flight several meters with the impact too.

BTW, this dog had been trained for protection demonstrations (for the show of it) using elements of ring training. When a man entered in his house with the intention of rape the fourteen y/o daughter of his owner this same dog, trained with the suit, torn up the man's chest and send him to UCI.
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