Number of protection dogs - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Increase font size: 0, 10, 25, 50%

GermanShepherds.com is the premier German Shepherd Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 10-31-2007, 11:21 PM   #31 (permalink)
Senior Member
 
K9mom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 294
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Well, I love the GSD breed for their loyalty and ease of training amoung many other things but I will tell you that the illusion that the dog would protect me is good enough. My theory has always been that if an intruder continues to come into my home with GSD signs outside and a GSD barking when they make a sound, that intruder has every intention on continuing into the home and either killing the dog or you or both. That intruder probably has a knife or gun and the dog would be no match anyway. For those middle of the road "guys" the illusion should be enough as it is easier to move onto someone else without the dog.
When I raised pups for a Guide Dog school, they used to press the idea that training your dog to listen well on command will make someone else question what your dog really knows and what their reaction would be. For example:
A stranger knocks on your door, your dog barks and you put the dog in a sit or down stay to your side and open the door (the dog is in a stay and no longer barking per your command). That person doesn't know A) If that dog is trained to attack on command as he listened so well to your other commands or B) Will the dog attack without command C) If the dog has no protection skills and is just well behaved. Better to keep that stranger guessing.
When I lived in a rough end of town, the "kids" (maybe 14 to 20 yr olds) would bark at my dog and I when we walked by their houses. I took that for a short period of time, then when I heard the first kid bark, I would cross to their side of the street ever so confidently and say, oh, did I heard you say you wanted to pet my dog? They would all scatter. Finally the barking stopped and they would ride their bikes/skate boards, etc by me and ask if the dog bites. I would hold the dog tight (as if to hold him back) and say, "only if he needs to. Do you wanna try to get close to me and find out?" I would ALWAYS get a NO WAY! response and they would take off. They never knew for sure what my dogs would do but they respected the dogs enough not to try.
Also, when we first moved to "that" neighborhood, I had just gotten home from Christmas dinner with the dogs and (out back was a barn/garage with woods behind it) one of my dogs was restless, uneasy, jumping up to the window sill. I thought maybe he was gonna be sick so I leashed him to let him out and when I cracked the door, he slammed passed me so fast I had to drop his leash or I would go butt over tea kettle down a flight of stairs. He jumped all the way to the bottom slammed the screen door open at the bottom and ran barking to the barn (where there where dirt bikes, a car, snow mobile, tools, etc) as I watched a siloette run around the back of the barn into the woods with my dog in hot pursuit. I was screaming for him but no response, i am thinking oh my god he's gonna kill my dog. I screamed for my neighbor to call the police and finally my dog returned all fine but on guard. I knew **** well someone was in the barn for a bad reason. The cop walked into the barn took his flashlight alone,walked about 30ft into the woods, turned around and said, "I think you saw a deer". WHAT!!!!!!!!!!! Last I knew deer didn't walk on two legs and hang out in barns, alone. I guess it was Rudolph stealing toys for children. After that night, I NEVER go outside at night without one of my dogs.

Sorry, I'm long winded tonight!
Tina
__________________
Tina & the K9 Krew
K9mom is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-01-2007, 09:10 AM   #32 (permalink)
Elite Member
 
jarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,480
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted By: K9MomWhen I lived in a rough end of town, the "kids" (maybe 14 to 20 yr olds) would bark at my dog and I when we walked by their houses. I took that for a short period of time, then when I heard the first kid bark, I would cross to their side of the street ever so confidently and say, oh, did I heard you say you wanted to pet my dog? They would all scatter. Finally the barking stopped and they would ride their bikes/skate boards, etc by me and ask if the dog bites. I would hold the dog tight (as if to hold him back) and say, "only if he needs to. Do you wanna try to get close to me and find out?" I would ALWAYS get a NO WAY! response and they would take off. They never knew for sure what my dogs would do but they respected the dogs enough not to try.
that's why people always think luc's too nice to be a GSD!

did/do your dogs have any protection or SchH training, or formalized obedience around this? i wasn't sure if you had or if you just worked the "scary GSD" angle.
__________________
Teagan RIP
Luc 10.5 yo GSD
Neb, husky/terrier/lab? X, DOB 18.4.2008
Cats Mitch RIP; Lear; Esme (refugee)
Nikolai & Eco the bunny couple extraordinaire
jarn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2007, 09:41 AM   #33 (permalink)
Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch
 
Chris Wild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 13,473
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted By: DanL
I think transitioning back from protection type training to Sch would be difficult, at least how we train and if the dog didn't come from a Sch background to start with.
With good dogs and good training it's not difficult at all. Especially if the dog learned SchH first and then moved onto other types of protection work. In other words he learned to bite the sleeve first, then he learned to bite elsewhere. Harder if the dog's foundation is to bite anywhere and later he's taught about the sleeve, but still do-able.

Dogs are very situational. Proper training for this type of situation means that if the sleeve is there, they'll bite the sleeve. If there is no sleeve, then they'll bite elsewhere. The sleeve serves as a trigger for the dog so he knows what context he's working in on that particular day.

This is where people get confused or think SchH dogs can't also be "real" protection dogs. Just because they'll bite a sleeve when it's present doesn't mean they won't bite if there is no sleeve. Granted that is true of some SchH dogs. But it's certainly not true of all of them. There are also many dogs who successfully cross train in SchH and Ring or other protection sports that utilize suits instead of sleeves, and who compete in SchH and also work as PSDs or PPDs.

The SchH clubs I've trained at have all used bite suits and muzzle work from time to time, and also taught things such as out off the active helper, biting the passive helper on command instead of barking, call offs from attack, etc.... Not because these things are required in a SchH trial, but because they make for good training, are ways to add more control and to further test the dog, and they're just fun and add a bit of variety to training days.
__________________
Wildhaus Kennels
Chris Wild is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2007, 01:00 PM   #34 (permalink)
Elite Member
 
jarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,480
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

chris, can i ask another question then? i was watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5cS...elated&search=

i presume AWDF stands for American Working Dog Federation (or something like that) and that this is a relatively high level of SchH competition.

the reason why i'm asking is - coming from a rugby background, a lot of the bites in this video look sub-par. (maybe i'm totally wrong here). but they look that b/c as the dog gets closer to the decoy, it breaks stride in preparation for the bite/hit rather than just going in and going for it (i thought that the best bites were the pit bull at 00:27 - what a gorgeous dog! - and the Mal at 02:08, the GSD at 03:42, and the what i think is a Mal at 05:50). the dogs that went for it had far more effective hits and really engaged to decoy and took him out/pushed him hard. the rest of the dogs kind of just latch on and go along for the ride, or that's how it looks.

is this common? would it be that most of the dogs in this video wouldn't be good PPD/PSD prospects but the few that go for it could transition?

(i'm just curious - when i was in high school and my team started doing the tentative tackles, we stuck them into constant tackling practice, so they'd lose the tentativity/fear (b/c somewhere in the subconscious i think that's what it is), and when i watched most of the dogs in this video, that's what i thought of)
__________________
Teagan RIP
Luc 10.5 yo GSD
Neb, husky/terrier/lab? X, DOB 18.4.2008
Cats Mitch RIP; Lear; Esme (refugee)
Nikolai & Eco the bunny couple extraordinaire
jarn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2007, 01:33 PM   #35 (permalink)
Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch
 
Chris Wild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 13,473
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

You can't tell anything for certain by looking at a video of courage tests. You've got to see the dog work, preferably on multiple occasions and in training, not just trials.

A lot of dogs who do flying leaps at decoys are working solely in prey. Some dogs gather before the bite out of hestiation. Obviously that's bad. But some strong dogs also gather a bit in order to launch themselves at the decoy and power into him, rather than just fly at him. Though if a dog gathers one can usually tell why it's doing so and which category the dog fits into.

If the helper makes an odd movement or breaks his stride coming into the dog, that can also make dogs pause a bit and leave the ground later.. they hesitate and replan their attack mid stride because they want to make sure what he's going to do and where he's going to go before committing to the bite.

Much of it is also breed tendencies. Mals as a whole are known to be fliers on long bites. But many of those fliers actually lack true commitment to the fight and are working mostly in prey. GSDs, who tend to be more likely to work out of aggression and have more commitment to fighting, generally don't fly through the air but rather launch straight into the helpers center of mass trying to bowl him over. And a Rottie, no matter how nice or serious it is, just isn't likely to be a flier. Rotties just aren't.

Also, dogs can be artificially taught to fly on courage tests by helpers always backing up at the last minute in training. Likewise, dogs can be discouraged from flying on courage tests by helpers who dodge them during training. A flying dog is an easy one for the helper to get out of the way of since the dog is in the air and already committed to it's trajectory. So training can also play a large part in what the dog does as he learns from experience what does and doesn't work.

Some people encourage flying courage tests because they look cool and are crowd pleasers. Others try to discourage flying courage tests because they can lead to missed or poor bites in trial if the helper and dog don't have their timing perfectly in sync and the helper starts to turn while the dog is still mid-air and can't adjust, and because flying courage tests lead to a lot of spinal injuries in dogs, and more than a few broken helpers as well.
__________________
Wildhaus Kennels
Chris Wild is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2007, 01:47 PM   #36 (permalink)
Elite Member
 
jarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,480
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

okay....it's true there were a few small gathers that had little effect on momentum, i can see those being a replan/repositioning. i was just surprised HOW many dogs did it, and did it significantly IMHO.

i see what you mean about the mals being fliers. the first one i mentioned at 02:08 doesn't hesitate on the bite, but also doesn't actually have much push afterwards.

i thought the GSD was the best, b/c not only was there no bite hesitation, but he used his body and weight to take the decoy down - as you've said, the centre of mass. but of course a GSD would be smart i also thought the pit bull, pound for pound, had a really powerful bite/hit.

is that one way of testing SchH dogs? for the decoy to purposely try to mess up their strides?

would flying courage tests even be the best hits? i liked it when there was no stride break, but i would think a closer and maybe lower hit would bring more power, to move into the bite/hit closer in than from a bit further out (loss of momentum/power in the air)?

....this is so off-topic from the original discussion, but it is interesting .
__________________
Teagan RIP
Luc 10.5 yo GSD
Neb, husky/terrier/lab? X, DOB 18.4.2008
Cats Mitch RIP; Lear; Esme (refugee)
Nikolai & Eco the bunny couple extraordinaire
jarn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2007, 04:52 PM   #37 (permalink)
Master Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan
Posts: 616
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Hate to burst your bubble but the GSD that took the helper down didn't do so out of any amazing prowess of his own. He knocked the helper over because the helper got caught flat footed and couldn't make the proper turn to absorb the dogs momentum, I saw other dogs in this video come close to doing the same thing for the same reason. Not that it isn't a great dog or a great helper but sometimes it happens when you deliberately have a head on collision full tilt with a dog.
__________________
Wildhaus Kennels
Kaiser SchH3 CGC TDI,
Nara CGC,
Wulf SchH1 P1 PD1 T1 URO2 CGC TT,
Raven SchH3 AWD2 PD1 P1 PA T1 UCD URO2 CGC TT,
Della SchHA TR1 PD1 P1 PA T1 URO2 CGC TT,
Heidi,
Jasmine
Wildtim is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2007, 06:55 PM   #38 (permalink)
Elite Member
 
jarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,480
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

well, you'd be the one to know, i'm just learning (or trying to).
__________________
Teagan RIP
Luc 10.5 yo GSD
Neb, husky/terrier/lab? X, DOB 18.4.2008
Cats Mitch RIP; Lear; Esme (refugee)
Nikolai & Eco the bunny couple extraordinaire
jarn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-01-2007, 07:23 PM   #39 (permalink)
Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch
 
Chris Wild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 13,473
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted By: jarn

is that one way of testing SchH dogs? for the decoy to purposely try to mess up their strides?
I'm not quite sure I'm following your train of thought here, in terms of how the helper trying to mess up the dog's strides would test anything? It's natural for a dog to hesitate and wait for the last possible second to commit if his target is dancing around. That doesn't prove anything except the dog is smart to wait to make sure his target will be where he thinks it will be before launching.

In SchH the helper work is not only supposed to be safe, but also fair and consistent. Meaning the helper should work each dog the same way, not pull something out of his hat to try to screw the dog up. The idea is to ensure a level playing field, with each dog being shown in a consistent manner so they can be judged compared to one another. The helper isn't supposed to help the dog, but he's is supposed to present the dog with a fair, consistent, predictable opportunity for the dog to show what he's got. This is the opposite of some of the ringsports where the helper is supposed to screw the dog up as much as he can. Including dodging on long bites. And most ring dogs I've seen when sent down field in a courage test scenario DO miss the initial bite if they go high because they commit early (the typical flying Mal) and then the helper just steps out of the way once the dog is mid air. One of the reasons ring dogs are taught to do so many leg bites.. much harder to make the dog miss if he keeps his feet on the ground longer and a helper can't get both of his legs out of the way as easily as he can dodge his upper body out of the way.

I don't know all that much about rugby, but in football someone who dives from far away is likely to miss a tackle if the ball carrier zigs once the tackler is midair. Whereas waiting until he knows what path the ball carrier is going to take and has the ball carrier within reach before attempting the tackle is just smart and going to have a much higher rate of success. Same goes for a dog after a helper.


Quote:
Quote:
i liked it when there was no stride break, but i would think a closer and maybe lower hit would bring more power, to move into the bite/hit closer in than from a bit further out (loss of momentum/power in the air)?
There has to be a stride break for a dog to gather it's real legs under him in order to propel at an upward angle to hit the helper, rather than continue just moving horizontally along the ground. The best hits IMO are dogs who do this, using not only their forward momentum from running full tilt but also the power in their rear end to smash into the helper.. not launch at him with abandon from 20 feet away the same way they would if someone was standing there holding a ball.

Of course, it's important to be able to see the difference between a dog gathering a bit in order to power into the helper, and a dog gathering because he's hesitating and not fully committed to the attack. Usually the differences are pretty obvious once you've got a bit of experience and have seen some examples of both so you can compare them.
__________________
Wildhaus Kennels
Chris Wild is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 11-02-2007, 12:06 AM   #40 (permalink)
Elite Member
 
jarn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,480
Default Re: Number of protection dogs

Quote:
Originally Posted By: Chris Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted By: jarn

is that one way of testing SchH dogs? for the decoy to purposely try to mess up their strides?
I'm not quite sure I'm following your train of thought here, in terms of how the helper trying to mess up the dog's strides would test anything? It's natural for a dog to hesitate and wait for the last possible second to commit if his target is dancing around. That doesn't prove anything except the dog is smart to wait to make sure his target will be where he thinks it will be before launching.

In SchH the helper work is not only supposed to be safe, but also fair and consistent. Meaning the helper should work each dog the same way, not pull something out of his hat to try to screw the dog up. The idea is to ensure a level playing field, with each dog being shown in a consistent manner so they can be judged compared to one another. The helper isn't supposed to help the dog, but he's is supposed to present the dog with a fair, consistent, predictable opportunity for the dog to show what he's got. This is the opposite of some of the ringsports where the helper is supposed to screw the dog up as much as he can. Including dodging on long bites. And most ring dogs I've seen when sent down field in a courage test scenario DO miss the initial bite if they go high because they commit early (the typical flying Mal) and then the helper just steps out of the way once the dog is mid air. One of the reasons ring dogs are taught to do so many leg bites.. much harder to make the dog miss if he keeps his feet on the ground longer and a helper can't get both of his legs out of the way as easily as he can dodge his upper body out of the way.
oh, okay. i was wondering if the helper was supposed to present a variable target for the dog.

this has been really interesting for me, i've learned a lot! thanks!
__________________
Teagan RIP
Luc 10.5 yo GSD
Neb, husky/terrier/lab? X, DOB 18.4.2008
Cats Mitch RIP; Lear; Esme (refugee)
Nikolai & Eco the bunny couple extraordinaire
jarn is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:47 PM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com