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Towards Personal Protection Dog, allow strangers to pet and fondle puppy or not?

12K views 58 replies 19 participants last post by  harmony 
#1 ·
Two GSDs raised... 60 y.o. Man... I travel in remote areas of Australia, with $250-500K in equipment. He will be a near constant companion except in the city at times, and will travel with me in the Bush. Best Mate, but there is a Security Function he needs to fill. That will be his job. He will be mostly just deterent, but must bluff well enough to do a security function. We cannot travel interstate with guns in Australia, so he will be headed towards a PPD function. When I am not around, NO ONE approaches him..

For a certain degree of Social Aggression, should I allow him to be touched by strangers? You know, everyone want to pet and love up a puppy.. Or should it be a bond with just me handling him (definitely at first).

I am looking for your Security Minded Advice. I am thinking: If anything have strangers make him a little uncomfortable? He will be large for a GSD, Black, intimidating already. I am just thinking I do not want him to be looking to strangers for affection, but be more mistrustful, for the security function he will perform. Your thoughts?

Thank you from Australia
 
#2 ·
The standard temperament for a GSD is...Temperament is confident, fearless but aloof; eager, alert, and willing to work. If the dog comes from a good background it will have all the traits you are looking for. If you just want the dog as a deterrent, then you are off to a good start. Others will chime in, but my belief is that you don't want a dog that will bark at everything or attack everything..you want a dog that can tell the difference between good and bad. My GSD loves people, but she doesn't go out of her way to approach strangers, if its family then she turns into a excited puppy. She was heavily socialized with other dogs, cats, people, little people, etc. When she was younger I allowed anyone that asked to pet her, but again I must say that if we go to the pet store now she doesn't approach them, but they(mostly the workers because they have known her since she was a puppy) will approach her and she will accept it. She doesn't bark at everything, so when she does bark I know something isn't right.
 
#3 · (Edited)
i would have thought the standard thing is to have yr dog exposed to as many different people as possible in order to develop confidence socially regardless of PPD or not. unless yr dog is going to live it's whole life in the same backyard and never leave it and it attacks everything that approaches regardless.

i don't mean they all should molest yr dog but the pup should be exposed to neutral strangers of every race, color and creed jmo especially children.

best done with like minded folks if possible.

my guess is having yr pup a little uncomfortable around starngers will be greatly counter-productive to a PPD, i would want a PPD prospect to be comfortable around everyone and everything and go from there.

power comes from strength and strength comes from confidence and confidence is most easily destroyed by having a puppy uncomfortable around strange people or strange things. all jmo.

seems you have a lot of things to sort thru which is fine, hope you get them sorted before you get this pup.

please feel free to put me on ignore or just say don't post on yr threads if you think i am being rude or whatever. just trying to help yr pup and you with what little experience i have gained - not an expert. most experts you will have to pay for advice, the rest of us help out where we can.
 
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#8 ·
I asked this in the general puppy section, but would also like the opinion of Professionals please.. [/U]



This is crazy:crazy:So us regular people who own a GSD don't know what we are talking about? You didn't like the answers in the original posts? I highly doubt that your going to get anyone to say that your new puppy doesn't need to be socialized. This is a forum, some people have years of experience with this breed. How do you think the rest of us learn? Yep us regular folks know how to read and research too..
 
#4 ·
Thank you x11,

I am trying to resolve this now, because I am picking up the pup, visited twice, at 10 weeks in January 15. 10 weeks, because I am living the "Dances With Wolves" a bit, out with horses, last frontier in Oz (Australia). Ten weeks old because I am doing a 10 day Yellowstone dead of winter trip by SnowCat and snowmobile to see the wolves in action where the animals gather around the thermal events.. He will be in some basic obedience training with the Breeders whom I trust, and I will go get him as soon as I return, and he will be with me at work at Bushtracker, and home, ALL the time.. I am doing this study pre work now, as I leave for Yellowstone end of December.

I am gathering as many opinions as possible, so I can do this properly. I can judge a bit by the posts on this Forum, and hopefully reach a consensus of opinion. He will bond with me 24 hours a day, 24/7. He will seldom be left in a yard on my horse property.. After the first few months he will get plenty of socialization, I am just unsure on the first 5 months or so, about greeting everyone with lick and tail wag to get petted and attention. I thought maybe I should keep him a bit out of the public coddling at first.. Maybe this is a middle ground. I will have children socialize with him, there is no reason to have ANY hostility around children. I was just unsure about adult strangers.. I can see two views and possibilities on this.

Maybe I will do both, isolation while bonding, then more public exposure and for sure children interaction in friendly play.. Never know, I might have Grandchildren some day, likely with 3 kids of my own now grown.

Thank you for your frank answers, even blunt you are to the point and I can see your experience showing through.. No offense taken, here or on the other Thread.

lone Ranger, on Oz..
 
#7 ·
Thank you x11,

. After the first few months he will get plenty of socialization, I am just unsure on the first 5 months or so, .
This is the most important time for socialization. A GSD is not a dog that you don't want socialized. Socialization is the key to getting a well rounded dog, well that and the genes. This dog will bond with you in training and just being with you...they know who there owners are. There is also no reason for this dog to be hostile around adults either...your looking for a lawsuit, because if this dog bites it will mean business. Just this dog going into an alert mode is enough for people to back down. People run the other way when they see mine, its actually very disturbing. I've also had people ask me if its okay to walk past me, which is really crazy, but the whole time my dog doesn't make a peep, but she watches and she watches very intently. I'm interested in hearing what your breeder said to do with the pup?
 
#5 ·
Just a followup: Not a brag but, I am as successful as I am, 48 Employees, because I do not do things haphazardly. I try and plan, gather information from experts like you, and then calculate my course as scientifically as possible. This pup means a lot to me, and I have three weeks to decide how to handle him. I am gone to Yellowstone dead of winter on Expedition to see wolves in action around the thermal events end of December, and will not be back to pick up the pup until he is 10 weeks old Jan 15. I trust the Breeders, and they will teach him basic obedience in my absence.

I live "Dances with Wolves", out on the last frontier in Australia.. Love Shepherds as my best mate, and don't want to make any more mistakes. I respect your advice on this matter.

lone Ranger
 
#6 ·
I think when your dog is a PUPPY you should absolutely let strangers handle them. Puppies should think people are AWESOME and puppies should be well socialized. As your dog matures and that natural aloofness starts to get developed, then avoid from strangers getting touchy-feely. You want your dog to not be friendly, but you don't want your dog to not know how to interact with "good" people either. But young puppies is another story....as long as you are comforatble with the person I say let them play. Obviously if you have reservations about the person for whatever reason then pass.
 
#9 ·
I think he wanted the opinion from PPD/K-9 trainers since that is what his dog will be and raising that type of dog can indeed be very different than your average dog owner :) I don't think he meant any offense by it (and I'm not a PPD trainer, as you can see I still took it upon myself to comment lol)
 
#11 ·
I think he wanted the opinion from PPD/K-9 trainers since that is what his dog will be and raising that type of dog can indeed be very different than your average dog owner :) I don't think he meant any offense by it (and I'm not a PPD trainer, as you can see I still took it upon myself to comment lol)
Very good GSDElsa, you are right on... Further, the answer gave me pause to reflect, and it struck a chord of truth here... llombardo, that is exactly it, no offence. I did a very good job, or got lucky with my personal Companion Dakota. He almost senses what I am thinking. Sadly he is moving slower and slower these days and getting ready to check out. This pup means a lot to me, and I am gathering opinions to do the job right. I did not know if PPD/K-9 or Professional Security Trainers might have a strong opinion on this or not, so this question so I can weigh up the responses......

GSDElsa, I thank you, and it feels right to me.. I was just not sure, and had never tried not having people socialize with my pup when young, hence appealing for help to do it all right. If it does not work out, I am happy to find him a good home and start again, I just want to do the best of my ability to do it right. Hence the appeal to you other GSD Owners. Thank you..:) So far your response is going to be my course of action. You seem correct on my reflection, and that is how I raised Cody.

Due to luck or my training: On a lead or chained up, he was on duty. Off lead, he only burred up if he sensed my concern or aggression, or I gave him his command. In ten years, he never hurt anyone, did not have to.

lone Ranger in Oz...
 
#10 ·
My opinion is that a PP dog needs to have a good sense of discrimination, needs to know who is a bad guy and who is just a guy minding his own business. The only way for a dog to learn discrimination is to meet as many people as possible, from an early age. Introduce him to people of every age, sex, appearance and color... kids running and playing like kids do... teenagers being teenagers... bicycles, joggers, strollers, horses, skateboards, other dogs, policemen and other uniforms, men in hats, men with beards, babies, etc. etc. etc.

Only then is a pup going to learn that most people are just fine, so he doesn't need to fear or feel defensive over the benign day-to-day activities of normal people.

Then, at a certain phase of maturity and training, you will introduce a "bad guy", and the dog learns to recognize what a real threat looks like. Because he already knows what isn't a real threat, your dog is not going to go off half-cocked over every stranger walking by.

It is, of course, very important that the dog have the correct temperament for this kind of work. Confident, clear-headed, stable, strong-nerved and biddable. If the dog is the least bit insecure, nervous, or fearful, he's not a good candidate as a PP dog. He'll look intimidating from behind the fence, but you can't count on him to protect you when push comes to shove.
 
#12 ·
Thank you, so far the concensus is the same... I have never held a pup to myself and not let strangers handle him, pet him, say hello puppy style.. I did not know if this could be an advantage some how, hence this Thread.

I was looking to see if that might make him a little more wary or protective or bonded to me. My loyal Dog Dakota raised in the manner like you suggest, Cody was only really on duty when chained up in a truck or something. When loose he was the big boofy anybodys friend, ready for a scratch or pat. Both of my Shepherds have not hurt anyone. I am just looking for the right approach starting from the puppy stage for the best outcome..

I am getting older, and would like a bit more of a protective dog looking out for me, but certainly not a menace to the Public. Just alert and a bit wary around strangers. Cody at times, would not let them get out of their car until I told him it was alright. That is what I want, a bit of attitude... And to make sure I did not just get lucky with Cody.

I have to ask, to get your cumulative experience and judgement...
 
#13 · (Edited)
what is the training plan beyond the puppy phase, what level of protection do you require, a tough looking dog that will bark/growl on command a dog that put people in hospital on command or die trying...?

no such thing as an untrained PPD.

you say you plan ahead, so far its a few weeks ahead at most, if yr dog is actuall going to be capable you should have a complete training schedule from birth to retirement already in place for this to work and to avoid certain dissappointment/disaster or both. do you know how much damage these dogs can do and most likely to the wrong person and the full time committment owning/training one especially from the puppy phase.
 
#14 ·
Your best bet is to actually go through some protection work training with an experienced trainer. THAT is the only way to ensure your dog will carry through with a response to a serious threat, and not back down in uncertainty or fear. (And actually know what to do, on a foundation of obedience for you to control what essentially becomes a weapon)

If you need a true protection dog, you'll need an experienced trainer. A lack of socialization doesn't create a good guard dog, it creates an uncertain/unconfident dog that won't know how to respond. Most dogs that are reactive to people and bark and growl would sooner flee than confront a threat... it is the well socialized, exposed, TRAINED dog that takes on the threat with confidence as your partner.

Make sense?
 
#15 ·
Thank you Wild Wolf, and x11... The truth outs now, you are both in line with what I thought all along, but I wanted to make sure I was on the right track.. Call this "Reality Check".. I told my Wife, who was concerned about the interaction with children (hoping for Grandchildren I think), I told Her that the more training a dog got, the more reliable they actually were.

Now this was based on my limited experience (2 GSDs), But I thought a dog that was aroud people all day, all the time like this one will be, the more training he had, the more stable and reliable he would be. I told Her that based on my experience, the more training he had, the less likely he would have a random aggressive response.. It would only be on command.....

Wild Wolf, I fell in love with the GSDs after "Dances With Wolves".. German Shepherds are one of the smartest and as close as I could get. I am going on a dead of winter Yellowstone trip to get close to see them in action. At last report, 98 in 10 packs inside Yellowstone, and about 300 kills. They have discerning taste too, predominately Elk.. heh he.. Yours somehow looks like your pen name.... Maybe it is the snow background, and my leaving in less than 3 1/2 weeks...

Best regards from Oz...
 
#16 ·
Thank you Wild Wolf, and x11... The truth outs now, you are both in line with what I thought all along, but I wanted to make sure I was on the right track.. Call this "Reality Check".. I told my Wife, who was concerned about the interaction with children (hoping for Grandchildren I think), I told Her that the more training a dog got, the more reliable they actually were.

Now this was based on my limited experience (2 GSDs), But I thought a dog that was aroud people all day, all the time like this one will be, the more training he had, the more stable and reliable he would be. I told Her that based on my experience, the more training he had, the less likely he would have a random aggressive response.. It would only be on command.....

Wild Wolf, I fell in love with the GSDs after "Dances With Wolves".. German Shepherds are one of the smartest and as close as I could get. I am going on a dead of winter Yellowstone trip to get close to see them in action. At last report, 98 in 10 packs inside Yellowstone, and about 300 kills. They have discerning taste too, predominately Elk.. heh he.. Yours somehow looks like your pen name.... Maybe it is the snow background, and my leaving in less than 3 1/2 weeks...



Best regards from Oz...
I hear you, my friend. Spent 10 years visiting Haliburton Wolf Center 2-3 times a month to research and observe. The sable west German shepherds make me feel close to wolves somehow, they look very wolflike. Wolves were the reason I chose the GSD as my breed so many years ago.

Should also mention got to watch a wild pack in Algonquin, Ontario...
 
#18 ·
CastleMaid,

I regret that you have done this. It was not accidental that I did this, I was looking for perspectives from two different directions. One a Sporting/Family/ or Personal Dog and one from the perspective of a Trainer in Professional K-9 or PPD category.

I have raised two GSDs, and this new pup I get on Jan 15 at 10 weeks old, I wanted to raise the best way possible for my needs. This is Research: I thought I might see perspectives from two different angles on this, that I could get a feel for Domestic vrs Professional training angles... There was a reason I put it in two places... I only have about 3 weeks left before I fly out on Expedition to see the Wolves in action in the dead of winter in Yellowstone. I am back about the 14th of January, and pick up my all black Working Dog style European bloodline GSD on the 15th, already in obedience training twice a day, at 10 weeks.

Thank you for your management of this wonderful Forum, but I accept this merger with regrets...

lone Ranger in Oz, living "Dances with Wolves" as best as possible out on the "Last Frontier" with horses, in Australia.
 
#20 ·
Lawyer? :p What, "regret this merger" too big of words for you x11? :laugh::laugh::laugh: Actually Director of Bushtracker. I have not called you any bad names x11...:laugh::laugh::rolleyes:

For your interest, I am Director, Inventor, Outback 4x4 self sufficient live in trailers, Military independent load sharing suspension, body armour, watertight to cross rivers to 1.2 metres, United Nations grade refridgeration running on Solar, Water Sterilization systems, and a whole lot more. 48 Employees, Number One in Australia in 4x4 Caravans, and backed up to July 2013 in Deliveries of custom Orders..... Modern Wagon Train gear towed by diesels in 4x4 remote regions.. Not a Brag, a Blessing of the Lord.. Free Website, Free Forum, patterned after this style of Forum with Categories of Interest, 16 years going now. Bushtracker

x11, I only LOOK stupid.... Western Gear living like 1880s... Pot belly stove in house, Travelling with horses and GSDs, Born 150 years too late my 1/2 blood Lakota Sioux Grandfather said...

For any of you GSD Owners that have been helping me, my gift to you, free viewing of my Website to see pictures of very remote country on the Last Frontier in Australia. www.bushtracker.com and my Owners Forum on www.bushtrackerownersforum.com or there is a link to it on the Website. This is not spam, I am not selling anything, I am booked out, this a gift to you to see some interesting gear and country in Australia, free of charge, not spam..
My way of saying thank you and returning something to you for your help.. Free armchair travel to Oz, you are welcome.

Kind regards, "Dances with Wolves" out on the Last Frontier in Australia...
 
#21 ·
Great website....will pass it onto my brother....he has a 4x4 business in Tamworth....sells suspension and does specialised conversions of 4X4 vehicles. I could definitely put one of your vans on my wishlist.....travel the outback in style and comfort.....luxury!!!!:)
 
#22 ·
No wonder I liked the look of your GSD there Sparra....

I got some new pictures today of the large German Working dog line, of "Zulu" his Sire and "Bindi" his Grandmother... (Both have long complicated Registration name besides). The Sire of my pup here in Australia, looks a lot alike, just a little heavier coat. Glamour Coat they call it here, not a long hair, not bushy around the base of the ears, just a plusher coat...

Anyway, Sparra, he has that same look, "really good" yea that look...



My Pup is a four week old floppy ear black fuzzball with the tonge hangin out.. He does have a few white hairs chest spot like his dad in the picture, and appears to have the Glamour coat... Hope he is big and carries that "look"...
 
#23 · (Edited)
the quality that you are looking for is intrinsic , inherent in the dog and can not be subverted or corrupted by strangers greeting the dog as a youngster -- because generally people do not once the dog starts getting bigger and no longer puppyish .

All the dogs I have , and now my partner is crime or is it crime-prevention Mike Clay , prepared for police service or personal protection , are allowed to receive the attention from strangers who admire the dog , want to ask questions etc. Never , does the dog seek out attention . The dog and then carries on.
Now then , the one thing we don't do is to make the dog inhibited in contact . The dog may not be corrected by the interested person should the dog be a bit rambunctious . They are told ahead of time .
 
#25 ·
I would like to thank all of you... I am convinced..

I will raise him like I did Dakota, and let him socialize with people as a puppy...

I was only looking to see if there was a way to improve the development towards a more personal Dog..

I am convinced, Thank You all... :cool:
 
#27 ·
From talking with 28 Breeders and a half dozen Trainers, here in Australia a lot of people go for genotype and not knowing more, my priority was phenotype, looking for the larger boned European Working Dog type of GSD..

Looking at the Gene pool for tempermant, in my view was still just the luck of the draw, maybe 50/50 like in horses. It is a help, but I had no reference point and bought this Dog before I found this Forum... :(

I went for him from his attack mode stance, here in stalking mode, ready to pounce...



Alright here is a cut and paste copy, 5 generations back, I can only put it in this format, it is in PDF and I cannot even put a link to photobucket with it. Here are all the GSDs in his line back 5 Generations, see if you can make anything out of it.... Dog and Bitch lines, all I could do...
EX (AUST) Turnberry
Stands Alone
ANKC/N161920
Andacht Britany
Turnberry Super
Impose
Troy von der
Noriswand
SZ/2040827
Turnberry Smart
Cookie
Andacht Mariah
SG Kim vom Kaibach
SZ/1901148
SchH3 FH
V2 Natz von der
Römerau
SZ/1806910
SchH2
V Gilla vom Kaibach
SZ/1819670
Andacht Letsgo
Krakin
SCHH1
EX (AUS) AUST. CH.
Lesko vom
Wildsteiger Land
SZ/1900372
Venesthorn Foxy
Dazzler AZ
Maraya Ebony Jade
Maraya black falcon
AUST/4100046085
SARITON
CARERRA
AUST/1323377
Jaimon Druze
AUST/1170677
Manisar Hyacinth
AUST/1099519
Osenbruck Ebonie
AUST/1338219
Bluemax Greek Flyer
AUST/1029869
BLUEMAX ZIGGY
Maraya Sharna
Sampenny Silver
Shadow
AUST. GRAND
CHAMPION Crossfire
Claim To Fame 'A' 'Z'
Bscl.1
N/1223804
Sampenny Cher
Schwarzstihl Mariah
SARITON
CARERRA
AUST/1323377
Schwarzstihl Shaka
SCHH3
VA10 Orbit von
Tronje
SZ/2037762
SchH3
VA8 Neptun von Bad-
Boll
SZ/1959513
SCHH3
V2 Yassko von der
Roten Matter
SZ/1869422
SchH1
V26 Eibe von Bad-
Boll
SZ/1891841
SCHH3
VA4 VA1(N) Natz
Pallendon Reggae
VH3
V3 Mike vom
Estherlager
NHSB/2347723
SchH1
V Babette von Tronje
SZ/1959640
vom Steigerhof
SZ/1841632
BHP3
VA6 Bertha's Oline
SZ/1959638
VZH IPO 1
V (NL) Essie vom
Estherlager
NHSB/2064451
VH2
V Haswin von Haus
Hanne
SZ/1959601
SchH3
VA Lupo vom
Klosterbogen
SZ/1799709
VH1
V Kelly von der
Herderskring
SZ/9014240
SG Ute vom
Endebruch
SZ/1836828
SCHH3, IPO3, FH
VA3 Hoss vom
Hasenborn
SZ/1753395
SchH1
V Hera vom Nassauer
Berg
SZ/1772856
SchH3
VA1 (N) Hagadahls
Arex
SchH3/FH
V Wobo vom
Lärchenhain
SZ/1824926
SchH3
V Chico von der
Lohner Heide
SZ/1751110
SchH1
VA4 (NL) Joga vom
Nieuwlandshof
SZ/1824916
BSCL.1
Cornelia vom
Fiemereck
SZ/2008846
SchH1
V, FIN SIEGERIN-94
Winecke's Vanta
N/30562/93
SCHH3
V Janko von der
Wienerau
SZ/1738053
Winecke's Bibbi
SZ/9108771
SchH2
Sabrinana vom
Fiemereck
SZ/1896576
SCHH3
VA1 Kimon van Dan
Alhedy's Hoeve
SZ/1788156
SCHH3
VA4 Mark vom Haus
Beck
SZ/1669141
IPO1
V Candy van Dan
Alhedy's Hoeve
SZ/9003736
SchH3/IP2
V Häsel vom
Fiemereck
SZ/1797958
SCHH3, FH
2X VA1 Uran vom
Wildsteiger Land
SZ/1526684
SchH3
V Zasta vom
Fiemereck
SZ/1696021



 
#28 ·
you know this ped has a lot of straight up show dogs? did you even contact actual working dog breeders in the 28? australia would not actually hav 28 legit working dog breeders, prolly more like 10 max and about 5 that are not just off-shoots of someone else's kennel. this info is easy to find out just look at the breeders in australia that compete in shuts, definately not 28 breeders more like the 5 i mentioned.

not judging yr pup btw.
 
#29 ·
Your pup is very cute!!!
Don't recognize any names in his pedigree so doesn't look like he is related to my bloke but yes......the blacks are very striking (though I am probably biased ;))
Good luck with your pup and your business.....have a great time in Yellowstone.....don't get eaten by a wolf or anything silly.....;) :)
 
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