Towards Personal Protection Dog, allow strangers to pet and fondle puppy or not?

[lone Ranger]

x11... Yes I have been on a learning curve to revisit all of my assumptions from successfully raising two GSDs over ten years. I have spent about 60 hours or more in the past two weeks learning as much as I can from this Forum and dozens of other sources, before I get my new pup.

I took the best dog I could find, despite your negative judgements, and will improve on my situation as opportunity allows.

One thing I have learned x11, is you only know how to respond negatively always on the underbelly dark side of things, never trying to be constructive, almost always destructive, rude, and critical. I will never respond to you again. Of 50 Employees, 300 Suppliers, and in all the other activities I engage in with horses, the Outback, and 4x4 exploring activities, I have learned that you are the type that always should be avoided amusing yourself by negative, derrogatory, divisive, undermining commentary. I doubt you could be successful in any constructive endeavour and probably just amuse yourself with your own negativity.

Please do not respond any more. I will gladly sign off of this Forum completely if you are ever elevated to anything beside an armchair negative critic. My only regrets is you are not local where I could tell you off in person, as I struggle to be polite and civil here, ever since your first ignorant and rude response. I will overlook any and all postings from you in the future so don't bother trying to bait me up. Politeness and professionalism prevents me from really describing you in real terms.

[mycobraracr]

The fact of the matter is, it's an argument that happens on a weekly basis on this forum. To let people pet puppy or not? It really seems that most people have no idea what socialization really means. It just means to expose your dog to as many things as possible. It doesn't mean that everyone and thier mom needs to touch the dog. Do you shake hands or hug every person you come in contact with? Are you not socialized? People get so confused sometimes. Not to mention you get hundreds of people that have never done protection work a day in thier life or maybe had a dog "evaluated" for a protection sport and are all of a sudden professionals and giving advice on things they know nothing about. So I understand why the "pro's" wanted to email or PM the OP.

[Jack's Dad]

Originally Posted by mycobraracr

The fact of the matter is, it's an argument that happens on a weekly basis on this forum. To let people pet puppy or not? It really seems that most people have no idea what socialization really means. It just means to expose your dog to as many things as possible. It doesn't mean that everyone and thier mom needs to touch the dog. Do you shake hands or hug every person you come in contact with? Are you not socialized? People get so confused sometimes. Not to mention you get hundreds of people that have never done protection work a day in thier life or maybe had a dog "evaluated" for a protection sport and are all of a sudden professionals and giving advice on things they know nothing about. So I understand why the "pro's" wanted to email or PM the OP.

I'm not an expert or professional. Just have had a lot of dogs, more GSDs than any other breed and I agree very much with mycobraracr.

Socialization is about exposure not allowing everybody and their brother to mess with your dog.

Mine are friendly but really don't care much about strangers at all.

I also don't understand why anyone cares who the OP's sources of info. were from. I agreed with most of what, (whoever they were) said.

[lone Ranger]

Originally Posted by mycobraracr

The fact of the matter is, it's an argument that happens on a weekly basis on this forum. To let people pet puppy or not? It really seems that most people have no idea what socialization really means. It just means to expose your dog to as many things as possible. It doesn't mean that everyone and thier mom needs to touch the dog. Do you shake hands or hug every person you come in contact with? Are you not socialized? People get so confused sometimes. Not to mention you get hundreds of people that have never done protection work a day in thier life or maybe had a dog "evaluated" for a protection sport and are all of a sudden professionals and giving advice on things they know nothing about. So I understand why the "pro's" wanted to email or PM the OP.

MyCobraracr Very wise and intelligent commentary there . Thank you for your input. I tried to summarize what their input was for others to benefit...

Jack's Dad They must have had their reasons and not for me to guess, but I actually got a very nice Thank You note for not revealing my Source... Not that I would since I think three ask me not to. Anyway, thank you, for your commentary on my five clumsy attempts at paraphrasing their advice and help... It seems to ring a chord of truth with me and how I will go. Maybe your analysis is why they did not want to get into the "fray" as there could be so many different definitions of socialization..

Thank you both for your wise and positive feedback... OP

[x11]

"...I have learned that you are the type that always should be avoided amusing yourself by negative, derrogatory, divisive, undermining commentary. I doubt you could be successful in any constructive endeavour and probably just amuse yourself with your own negativity..."

[Catu]

Originally Posted by lone Ranger

Wow, I have discovered something here... There is an undercurrent from Professionals that do not want to be in conflict with the Moderators or catch flack from the GSD pet owning Public for their views...(no offence intended, I am just trying to describe a category of general GSD pet Owner)

The Professionals are not adding to this Thread much. Their view is a little different, and I have gotten it in about the same substance from about 8 sources now, by Messaging, and email through Bushtracker, from Police, Guard, Security, and PPD Professional sorts. They did not want to go Public, for reservations about flack for "political correctness" or conflicts with Moderators for showing a side they did not want the public to see?? (guessing on my part)... That is a little sad for this Forum, but when I encounter it I am going to paraphrase the results for others like myself to benefit from. Here are their points, I will not copy, I am paraphrasing their results as their answers were amazingly consistant:

1) Go out of your way to have all children, be able to come up and love the puppy. This is an important function, the puppy should never perceive the Children as anything but fun and attention, and be very comfortable with them at all times. Children are NEVER a threat...

2) Socialization is at various levels, and no it is not in your best interests to have just any Adult come up and fawn all over the puppy. Only allow ones that ask permission, or Friends and Family, and of course ALL Children. Asking permission is an important part. It introduces the dog to people that you think are alright.

3) The GSD trait is to be a bit aloof anyway, do not expose the puppy to just anyone approaching and being overly friendly, it is not in your best interests for any kind of security or protection. Strangers just coming up without permission can end up being a distraction to the dog, further can work against you, as most with Criminal Intent are well practiced at looking friendly and normal before they strike...

4) Only allow people that you are comfortable with approach the puppy, not just any random stranger, and again by permission... Anyone you have any misgivings about, or something not right with them, do not allow them to approach or handle the puppy.

5) Finally on Liability, it seems that they agree that the more Training the dog has, the less likely there is to be any kind of random aggression without your command. They just will not take it on themselves to randomly lash out at someone, unless of course their Handler/Owner is attacked or commands them to respond. In other words, they all seem to say that the more training the dog has, the safer he is.

The exception is Military and Police extreme attack trained dogs, some do not think they can return to the public because of potential misuse or accidental use of their commands, and sadly they say if the Handler does not get them, they are often "put down"... ****...

Anyway, in summary: If you want a dog that is a little more protection oriented, then the answer to this Thread from the Professionals is a little more reserved than what has been stated here. Sadly the Professionals when invited to post their answers on the thread, declined and hinted or expressed reservations about putting their answers here due to backlash or some unspecified friction.. One final quote that really stood out, and I actually got their permission to quote them, (they said it was not their original, possibly from the Breeds Developer) Quote is something like this: "You cannot expect your German Shepherd to protect the Sheep from the Wolves, if he is friends with the Wolves"

I hope this has been a help, I thank all of you that answered this Thread. I think the guidelines above are realistic and I accept them as the way to go..

Personally I think this Forum is GREAT.. And it is helping me a lot. Only weeks til I get my 3rd and hopefully best GSD... Parents are big boned, low 2/3 to 0/0 hip and elbow x-ray scores, and kind of flat back and oversized to the show dogs maximums..

Kind regards, lone Ranger out on the "Last Frontier" with GSDs and Horses...

Not being a professional in PPD (though I worked at a facility that rented them when I started on my dog learning journey, so I do have some experience) I agree with very much you summarize. Without pretending my dogs to be PPD, I try to do the same. Even the SAR dog is now a problem because I allowed her to play with random strangers around the corner and now she can "reward herself" on a search bringing a stick to the nearest person. Not good.

[lone Ranger]

Catu,

Thankyou for the constructive response.. I am headed "towards" a PPD, not any kind of extreme, and like you I just want to do the right foundation to get as far as I can get with some Professional training as well. I have sound reasons, like if I am camped out in the Outback with $250,000 in rigs or more, if a 4x4 load of drunken louts show up looking for trouble or even a campfire to share, I want them to move on... somewhere else

Also, I have a medical condition that does not allow the end extremes of exertion in a fight if I can avoid it. With "Caesar" with me, it should complete avoid the situation, even with a potential burgular in one of my Factories if I am called to attend a multiple alarms with no one else available. (gets kind of spooky, and I have entered with a 12 ga double..).

From advice I could gather, those points seemed to strike a chord of truth, as it matched my own personal experience with the two I raised. This thread is to try and make sure it was not chance or luck, and get it right for the little black Caesar coming. Tonka my desexed bitch companion for Cody, is just worthless in this way.

She was not raised with any PPD in mind, just a love bug pet with all strangers, and now only barks a dogs and strangers when she is locked up in the yard, but not a peep out in public in the back of my truck. Further She is useless with me out in Public or even chained up out away from her yard, friendly and looking for a pat from everyone. Cody on the other hand, was kept more aloof from strangers, and will approach for pat and scratch, but no one comes near him when chained in my truck or horsefloat. Also no one that is aggressive when on a leash if i put him on alert, and no one wants to climb over the fence in my yard. Even my own Staff that know him say there is no way they are going over the fence to get anything when I am not there...

I gathered and paraphrased what was sent to me by email and PPM from people that were, or still were in the K-9 or PPD related professions, that seemed to know from experience. This pup is the best dog I could find in Australia that was on the ground, and I believe their advice as they presented themselves in a credible manner. I will be getting another one in 18 months or less if this pup does not work out..

I have only shared it here to try and help others and put something back into the Forum, returning something of value. Thank you for you positive feedback Catu. Even with a trip this weekend to another Trainer to see his dogs as I might want a pup in the future, 7 hours drive, that advice stands on those 5 view points... Kind regards from Oz...

[harmony]

Originally Posted by lone Ranger

Two GSDs raised... 60 y.o. Man... I travel in remote areas of Australia, with $250-500K in equipment. He will be a near constant companion except in the city at times, and will travel with me in the Bush. Best Mate, but there is a Security Function he needs to fill. That will be his job. He will be mostly just deterent, but must bluff well enough to do a security function. We cannot travel interstate with guns in Australia, so he will be headed towards a PPD function. When I am not around, NO ONE approaches him..

For a certain degree of Social Aggression, should I allow him to be touched by strangers? You know, everyone want to pet and love up a puppy.. Or should it be a bond with just me handling him (definitely at first).

I am looking for your Security Minded Advice. I am thinking: If anything have strangers make him a little uncomfortable? He will be large for a GSD, Black, intimidating already. I am just thinking I do not want him to be looking to strangers for affection, but be more mistrustful, for the security function he will perform. Your thoughts?

Thank you from Australia

I could not go thru five pages to read this but something must be off here. I had someone want to take one of my dogs to hatti and it was ten grand(just to get it there), they did not have the money to take the dog and I donated for a good cause! There is bad places to go (and I was talking to a doctor), and I think you are full of bull hockey!!!!!!!

[harmony]

And I get a little smeard when someone says that :{, that is not how it goes. If you want a dog to die for you, are you ready to die for the same thing???