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Towards Personal Protection Dog, allow strangers to pet and fondle puppy or not?

12K views 58 replies 19 participants last post by  harmony 
#1 ·
Two GSDs raised... 60 y.o. Man... I travel in remote areas of Australia, with $250-500K in equipment. He will be a near constant companion except in the city at times, and will travel with me in the Bush. Best Mate, but there is a Security Function he needs to fill. That will be his job. He will be mostly just deterent, but must bluff well enough to do a security function. We cannot travel interstate with guns in Australia, so he will be headed towards a PPD function. When I am not around, NO ONE approaches him..

For a certain degree of Social Aggression, should I allow him to be touched by strangers? You know, everyone want to pet and love up a puppy.. Or should it be a bond with just me handling him (definitely at first).

I am looking for your Security Minded Advice. I am thinking: If anything have strangers make him a little uncomfortable? He will be large for a GSD, Black, intimidating already. I am just thinking I do not want him to be looking to strangers for affection, but be more mistrustful, for the security function he will perform. Your thoughts?

Thank you from Australia
 
#31 ·
Well, not being as well schooled in the GSDs Gentypes as you, not knowing about this Forum, not living in America with such vast resources, I did the best I could to get a Pup as close as possible before Cody dies. There are probably only 2-3 just working dog Breeders and no male pups available. They are often spoken for before they are born.

x11 I did the best I could, am going to get a second one in about 18 months, or sooner if this little fellow does not work out... But I have faith he will be just fine. Your comments are exactly why I did not want to put on the Ped, you cannot compare our resources here with what is in your 300 million people pool. :( The last person wanting what I want, waiting for the perfect bloodline, waited 18 months for a pup, and that is no guarantee. Sire and Dam are flat backed very good x-ray scores. This was the best available in Australia that I could find and I wanted black.

This is replacement Therapy for me losing my Mate... Cody on medication is still limping, and will only do a short run and frolic play before he slows right back to a trot. He cannot beat his companion desexed Bitch Tonka to toys I throw anymore. He knows it and does not bring them too me for play, he is in trouble. I was hoping to capture some of his personality as the pup mimics the Alpha Dog before he passes on. So I did the best I could, but if he is not right he can be moved on or live at my horse property and I will go back shopping for a better pup. Actually, I want two of them, and don't care if I have a whole wolf pack at the property.

x11, if you have any more bad news about his Ped, please don't tell me. I am hoping for the best.
 
#32 ·
relax ranger, i am not trying to bring you bad news.

i thought you were on a different journey in yr original posts is all, now you talk about this deal as "...replacement Therapy for me losing my Mate... ".

thats totally cool but is not what i thought you originally asked for help with.

neither journey is right or wrong or better or worse.

you assume i live in the states.

best wishes.
 
#36 ·
Carmspack,
Thank you for the lead to Von Forell.. If I lived in Melbourne, it might be a good thing to get involved with them, their Bloodlines, their training, but that is 2,200 kms away. I am going down there in March, might touch base and see their dogs... I hate ordering a pup blind, most like this are spoken for before you can see them, and 2,200 kms is a bit of a drive.

Carmspack, Show lines? I had no idea. Without this Forum and not knowing the Ped, I did what I could. The ones in the Pedigree could see pictures of, most did not qualify to be Show Dogs as they were too tall for one. The dogs I saw at the Breeder were oversized to Show dogs, bigger bones, and more of the flat back style, where the Show Dogs in Australia normally have the drop off on the back, sort of arch back down angle to the hips.. And fairer bones. Not knowing better that is what I got in Cody ten years ago. If this little Black Fellow does not have the protective and alert tempermant with high drive, that I am looking for, I will soon get another.. He is to be a Best Mate, but he has a job to do.

Interestingly, back on track, Law Enforcement/PPD Owners have commented reservations on having too much public handling of the puppy by PM to help. The same with the PPD Trainers I contacted by email. They are more reserved about this puppy public socialization bit. And I can see both sides. There seems to be a little different view, not wanting the puppy to look to everyone for affection and entertainment.. But be a little selective on who pets and handles him as a pup. Let there be a lot of interaction with children, but a little less affection from just general public, maybe only friends and family.

There does seem to be a middle ground opinion here... Thank you
 
#38 ·
Important summation, info sharing here on the forum:

Wow, I have discovered something here... There is an undercurrent from Professionals that do not want to be in conflict with the Moderators or catch flack from the GSD pet owning Public for their views...(no offence intended, I am just trying to describe a category of general GSD pet Owner)

The Professionals are not adding to this Thread much. Their view is a little different, and I have gotten it in about the same substance from about 8 sources now, by Messaging, and email through Bushtracker, from Police, Guard, Security, and PPD Professional sorts. They did not want to go Public, for reservations about flack for "political correctness" or conflicts with Moderators for showing a side they did not want the public to see?? (guessing on my part)... That is a little sad for this Forum, but when I encounter it I am going to paraphrase the results for others like myself to benefit from. Here are their points, I will not copy, I am paraphrasing their results as their answers were amazingly consistant:

1) Go out of your way to have all children, be able to come up and love the puppy. This is an important function, the puppy should never perceive the Children as anything but fun and attention, and be very comfortable with them at all times. Children are NEVER a threat...

2) Socialization is at various levels, and no it is not in your best interests to have just any Adult come up and fawn all over the puppy. Only allow ones that ask permission, or Friends and Family, and of course ALL Children. Asking permission is an important part. It introduces the dog to people that you think are alright.

3) The GSD trait is to be a bit aloof anyway, do not expose the puppy to just anyone approaching and being overly friendly, it is not in your best interests for any kind of security or protection. Strangers just coming up without permission can end up being a distraction to the dog, further can work against you, as most with Criminal Intent are well practiced at looking friendly and normal before they strike...

4) Only allow people that you are comfortable with approach the puppy, not just any random stranger, and again by permission... Anyone you have any misgivings about, or something not right with them, do not allow them to approach or handle the puppy.

5) Finally on Liability, it seems that they agree that the more Training the dog has, the less likely there is to be any kind of random aggression without your command. They just will not take it on themselves to randomly lash out at someone, unless of course their Handler/Owner is attacked or commands them to respond. In other words, they all seem to say that the more training the dog has, the safer he is.

The exception is Military and Police extreme attack trained dogs, some do not think they can return to the public because of potential misuse or accidental use of their commands, and sadly they say if the Handler does not get them, they are often "put down"... ****...:(

Anyway, in summary: If you want a dog that is a little more protection oriented, then the answer to this Thread from the Professionals is a little more reserved than what has been stated here. Sadly the Professionals when invited to post their answers on the thread, declined and hinted or expressed reservations about putting their answers here due to backlash or some unspecified friction.. One final quote that really stood out, and I actually got their permission to quote them, (they said it was not their original, possibly from the Breeds Developer) Quote is something like this: "You cannot expect your German Shepherd to protect the Sheep from the Wolves, if he is friends with the Wolves";)

I hope this has been a help, I thank all of you that answered this Thread. I think the guidelines above are realistic and I accept them as the way to go..

Personally I think this Forum is GREAT.. And it is helping me a lot. Only weeks til I get my 3rd and hopefully best GSD... Parents are big boned, low 2/3 to 0/0 hip and elbow x-ray scores, and kind of flat back and oversized to the show dogs maximums..

Kind regards, lone Ranger out on the "Last Frontier" with GSDs and Horses...
 
#56 ·
Wow, I have discovered something here... There is an undercurrent from Professionals that do not want to be in conflict with the Moderators or catch flack from the GSD pet owning Public for their views...(no offence intended, I am just trying to describe a category of general GSD pet Owner)

The Professionals are not adding to this Thread much. Their view is a little different, and I have gotten it in about the same substance from about 8 sources now, by Messaging, and email through Bushtracker, from Police, Guard, Security, and PPD Professional sorts. They did not want to go Public, for reservations about flack for "political correctness" or conflicts with Moderators for showing a side they did not want the public to see?? (guessing on my part)... That is a little sad for this Forum, but when I encounter it I am going to paraphrase the results for others like myself to benefit from. Here are their points, I will not copy, I am paraphrasing their results as their answers were amazingly consistant:

1) Go out of your way to have all children, be able to come up and love the puppy. This is an important function, the puppy should never perceive the Children as anything but fun and attention, and be very comfortable with them at all times. Children are NEVER a threat...

2) Socialization is at various levels, and no it is not in your best interests to have just any Adult come up and fawn all over the puppy. Only allow ones that ask permission, or Friends and Family, and of course ALL Children. Asking permission is an important part. It introduces the dog to people that you think are alright.

3) The GSD trait is to be a bit aloof anyway, do not expose the puppy to just anyone approaching and being overly friendly, it is not in your best interests for any kind of security or protection. Strangers just coming up without permission can end up being a distraction to the dog, further can work against you, as most with Criminal Intent are well practiced at looking friendly and normal before they strike...

4) Only allow people that you are comfortable with approach the puppy, not just any random stranger, and again by permission... Anyone you have any misgivings about, or something not right with them, do not allow them to approach or handle the puppy.

5) Finally on Liability, it seems that they agree that the more Training the dog has, the less likely there is to be any kind of random aggression without your command. They just will not take it on themselves to randomly lash out at someone, unless of course their Handler/Owner is attacked or commands them to respond. In other words, they all seem to say that the more training the dog has, the safer he is.

The exception is Military and Police extreme attack trained dogs, some do not think they can return to the public because of potential misuse or accidental use of their commands, and sadly they say if the Handler does not get them, they are often "put down"... ****...:(

Anyway, in summary: If you want a dog that is a little more protection oriented, then the answer to this Thread from the Professionals is a little more reserved than what has been stated here. Sadly the Professionals when invited to post their answers on the thread, declined and hinted or expressed reservations about putting their answers here due to backlash or some unspecified friction.. One final quote that really stood out, and I actually got their permission to quote them, (they said it was not their original, possibly from the Breeds Developer) Quote is something like this: "You cannot expect your German Shepherd to protect the Sheep from the Wolves, if he is friends with the Wolves";)

I hope this has been a help, I thank all of you that answered this Thread. I think the guidelines above are realistic and I accept them as the way to go..

Personally I think this Forum is GREAT.. And it is helping me a lot. Only weeks til I get my 3rd and hopefully best GSD... Parents are big boned, low 2/3 to 0/0 hip and elbow x-ray scores, and kind of flat back and oversized to the show dogs maximums..

Kind regards, lone Ranger out on the "Last Frontier" with GSDs and Horses...
Not being a professional in PPD (though I worked at a facility that rented them when I started on my dog learning journey, so I do have some experience) I agree with very much you summarize. Without pretending my dogs to be PPD, I try to do the same. Even the SAR dog is now a problem because I allowed her to play with random strangers around the corner and now she can "reward herself" on a search bringing a stick to the nearest person. Not good.
 
#39 · (Edited)
The Professionals are not adding to this Thread much. Their view is a little different, and I have gotten it in about the same substance from about 8 sources now, by Messaging, and email through Bushtracker, from Police, Guard, Security, and PPD Professional sorts. ...They did not want to go Public, for reservations about flack for "political correctness" or conflicts with Moderators for showing a side they did not want the public to see?? (guessing on my part)...


:confused:
 
#41 ·
Lone Ranger, you aren't being totally fair in your summation of "professionals". Most police trainers don't buy puppies so we really don't have the experience with puppies in general. we buy adult dogs. They can be tested to ensure they have the nerves, behaviors etc we are looking for. That way we don't wast 18 months to find out the dog is a nerve bag.

PPD professionals may do it differently, but that's not my area of expertise.

DFrost
 
#42 ·
Hey, don't flog the messenger.. A couple of them indicated they also raised their own with their own Bloodline. I am only reporting on what was sent to me and they were advising me on how to do this.. Several times I invited them to put their comments on the Forum, and they declined, hinting at some kind unspecified backlash to their advice...

On the puppy socialization I would have put it all off to just other opinions, but their comments were very consistant on their advice on socialization with strangers. I for one am taking this on board. This was only my clumsy my attempt to paraphrase them for others benefits, but I think I have done a fair job of it.

They have convinced me, and it made sense.. For me, I think this Thread is "Job Done"...
 
#43 · (Edited)
What makes you think these people giving you this information are "professionals" - whether it's correct information or not?

I'd think true "professionals" with real PPD training experience would at least voice an opinion in a thread like this if they were going to go out of their way and pm or email you.
 
#44 ·
Lucy Dog, honestly I do not know the why. They were real, and trying to help. Most of them gave me their Credentials, or experience, or a working Website, and such.. They had their reasons, and I got about 7-8 emails on the Bushtracker emaill and PMs. At least half I invited to post on this thread, and I think 3? wrote back and voiced a degree of reluctance for some reason. Look I am new here, not trying to stir things up.. One mentioned history of conflicts "banned" (I don't have a clue what that means) and one mentioned problems with "Mods" (again no idea). Look I do not know what it even means nor do I want to answer anything more on this. One I asked permission to quote, and they gave permission but were firm on anonynimity sp?

I paraphrased all their advice together. It was only noteworthy as the context of their advice was very uniform, like consistent.

Now this is all off track, I posted something I thought might be of value. Please no more questions on the sources as they must have had their reasons.
 
#45 ·
OTOH, my wife and I once met a very well known "old German" judge who was alo very big in the US GSD community. He and his wife asked my wife (totally not a dog person except that she really liked GSD'S) to take their big male GSD for a walk around the show wemet them at. So she did by herself! And walked around with this beautiful male dog for almost 40 minutes and then she returned as plaesed as could be - said that the dog was "GREAT". THEN we find out that this dog had once scored the highest in Protection at theirannual Seiger show and had also been trained in PP.

THAT was what a trained dog should be - very social and trustworthy in public BUT - anyone doubt what would he hppened if anyone had messed with my wife while they were walking around? I don't!

That is assuming of course that the dog has to also be around in public!
 
#47 · (Edited)
Loneranger would you mind private messaging me who you are getting your pup from if you wouldn't mind please? Just out of general curiosity, nothing sinister.

I have a solid black WL boy :)
 
#48 ·
With a personal protection dog you have to be strict when they are young and in training. Showing them affection is fine and healthy but when it comes to strangers and appropriate affection be cautious
 
#49 ·
TommyB681,
I agree.. From what help I have been able to gather, my summation of their advice is done in those items paraphrased 1-5 in that back Post... In my journey to get a dog along the path as far as possible to well socialized but also PPD as far as I can get, those paraphrased 1-5 items are going to be my guidelines. I did not do too bad a job with my current Alpha male Dakota (Cody). He would burr up (puff up and display aggression) on command, barking, and approach a stranger coming in the gate until called off half way. I did this now and then to test him, and apologized to the strangers, no risk as Cody was FLAWLESS on recall. In his nearly ten years, there has really not been any extreme aggression except on command, he would go everywhere with me in public. He was only extreme when chained up in a truck or trailer, and then with him at the end of his chain going off with the bad dog bark, no one has been game to challenge him further. He was well socialized, but knew when he was on duty (chained up or in a locked yard) and was great with people and kids in public. He would go off his head on command, but never put to the test. I either got lucky with him (most probable), or know a little bit of what I am doing. My 1-5 in the Post a page back in this Thread, stands for what I will do with this next pup...

Bianca: I will keep them confidential until I speak with them. They know me through Reining Horse Competitions and are Hobby people not Professional puppy breeders. They breed a couple litters per year, and train for fun with Professionals and a club. The Sire, a big black Euro style dog is not theirs. They do have a fabulous stud, a bit big at 70 cm at the shoulder and 50 kg a big Sable wolf, is temporarily sterile (hopefully) due to a reaction to a new monthly flea pill. Too big to mount a Bitch they were doing A.I. when it was discovered he had no swimmers... :eek: Anyway, I trust them.. They have no puppies available. I was given pick of the two males in this litter, my pick, with their advice. One male would just not stand still to be held, and was all over the place. The other male was more controllable, bigger muzzle -head -and feet, and seemed to pay attention to who was handling him and he was my pick even though I was looking for a shorter coat. Hard to tell at my four week pick, he may be a "Glamour Coat" not long hair but not short hair either. The Breeder has said their experience with that medium coat was that it often shed less than the short coat. That was true with mine, Cody a short coat leaves hair EVERYWHERE, and Wakan Tonka my de-sexed female has a glamour coat and sheds very little except for about twice a year and it comes off in clumps..

Others: From all I have gathered in ten years with my own 67 cm at shoulder GSD, and with professionals and on this Forum: The better Trained a Dog is towards personal protection, the more stable he is and less likely to throw random aggression unless commanded to, or to protect his handler... That has been my overall experience...

Kind regards, lone Ranger...
 
#50 ·
well that wraps it all up nicely, how many other threads here have ever been this successful, guy who likes to do scientific research and plan every detail was looking for a PPD and came to the conclusions that a show line dog that has a straight back euro style wolf bred by hobbyists who do reigning competitions and produce oversize glamour coated dogs and receives secret advice too secret to state publicly cos the mods here have "agendas" and paraphrased items 1 - 5 from a page back are the new guidelines.......

as long as we are all happy...
 
#51 ·
X11 EYES ONLY PLEASE, my apologies to others....

x11... Yes I have been on a learning curve to revisit all of my assumptions from successfully raising two GSDs over ten years. I have spent about 60 hours or more in the past two weeks learning as much as I can from this Forum and dozens of other sources, before I get my new pup.

I took the best dog I could find, despite your negative judgements, and will improve on my situation as opportunity allows.

One thing I have learned x11, is you only know how to respond negatively always on the underbelly dark side of things, never trying to be constructive, almost always destructive, rude, and critical. I will never respond to you again. Of 50 Employees, 300 Suppliers, and in all the other activities I engage in with horses, the Outback, and 4x4 exploring activities, I have learned that you are the type that always should be avoided amusing yourself by negative, derrogatory, divisive, undermining commentary. I doubt you could be successful in any constructive endeavour and probably just amuse yourself with your own negativity.

Please do not respond any more. I will gladly sign off of this Forum completely if you are ever elevated to anything beside an armchair negative critic. My only regrets is you are not local where I could tell you off in person, as I struggle to be polite and civil here, ever since your first ignorant and rude response. I will overlook any and all postings from you in the future so don't bother trying to bait me up. Politeness and professionalism prevents me from really describing you in real terms.
 
#52 ·
The fact of the matter is, it's an argument that happens on a weekly basis on this forum. To let people pet puppy or not? It really seems that most people have no idea what socialization really means. It just means to expose your dog to as many things as possible. It doesn't mean that everyone and thier mom needs to touch the dog. Do you shake hands or hug every person you come in contact with? Are you not socialized? People get so confused sometimes. Not to mention you get hundreds of people that have never done protection work a day in thier life or maybe had a dog "evaluated" for a protection sport and are all of a sudden professionals and giving advice on things they know nothing about. So I understand why the "pro's" wanted to email or PM the OP.
 
#53 ·
I'm not an expert or professional. Just have had a lot of dogs, more GSDs than any other breed and I agree very much with mycobraracr.

Socialization is about exposure not allowing everybody and their brother to mess with your dog.

Mine are friendly but really don't care much about strangers at all.

I also don't understand why anyone cares who the OP's sources of info. were from. I agreed with most of what, (whoever they were) said.
 
#55 ·
:)"...I have learned that you are the type that always should be avoided amusing yourself by negative, derrogatory, divisive, undermining commentary. I doubt you could be successful in any constructive endeavour and probably just amuse yourself with your own negativity...":)
 
#57 ·
Catu,

Thankyou for the constructive response.. I am headed "towards" a PPD, not any kind of extreme, and like you I just want to do the right foundation to get as far as I can get with some Professional training as well. I have sound reasons, like if I am camped out in the Outback with $250,000 in rigs or more, if a 4x4 load of drunken louts show up looking for trouble or even a campfire to share, I want them to move on... somewhere else :D

Also, I have a medical condition that does not allow the end extremes of exertion in a fight if I can avoid it. With "Caesar" with me, it should complete avoid the situation, even with a potential burgular in one of my Factories if I am called to attend a multiple alarms with no one else available. (gets kind of spooky, and I have entered with a 12 ga double..;)).

From advice I could gather, those points seemed to strike a chord of truth, as it matched my own personal experience with the two I raised. This thread is to try and make sure it was not chance or luck, and get it right for the little black Caesar coming. Tonka my desexed bitch companion for Cody, is just worthless in this way.

She was not raised with any PPD in mind, just a love bug pet with all strangers, and now only barks a dogs and strangers when she is locked up in the yard, but not a peep out in public in the back of my truck. Further She is useless with me out in Public or even chained up out away from her yard, friendly and looking for a pat from everyone. Cody on the other hand, was kept more aloof from strangers, and will approach for pat and scratch, but no one comes near him when chained in my truck or horsefloat. Also no one that is aggressive when on a leash if i put him on alert, and no one wants to climb over the fence in my yard. :D Even my own Staff that know him say there is no way they are going over the fence to get anything when I am not there...

I gathered and paraphrased what was sent to me by email and PPM from people that were, or still were in the K-9 or PPD related professions, that seemed to know from experience. This pup is the best dog I could find in Australia that was on the ground, and I believe their advice as they presented themselves in a credible manner. I will be getting another one in 18 months or less if this pup does not work out..

I have only shared it here to try and help others and put something back into the Forum, returning something of value. Thank you for you positive feedback Catu. Even with a trip this weekend to another Trainer to see his dogs as I might want a pup in the future, 7 hours drive, that advice stands on those 5 view points... Kind regards from Oz...
 
#58 ·
Two GSDs raised... 60 y.o. Man... I travel in remote areas of Australia, with $250-500K in equipment. He will be a near constant companion except in the city at times, and will travel with me in the Bush. Best Mate, but there is a Security Function he needs to fill. That will be his job. He will be mostly just deterent, but must bluff well enough to do a security function. We cannot travel interstate with guns in Australia, so he will be headed towards a PPD function. When I am not around, NO ONE approaches him..

For a certain degree of Social Aggression, should I allow him to be touched by strangers? You know, everyone want to pet and love up a puppy.. Or should it be a bond with just me handling him (definitely at first).

I am looking for your Security Minded Advice. I am thinking: If anything have strangers make him a little uncomfortable? He will be large for a GSD, Black, intimidating already. I am just thinking I do not want him to be looking to strangers for affection, but be more mistrustful, for the security function he will perform. Your thoughts?

Thank you from Australia
I could not go thru five pages to read this but something must be off here. I had someone want to take one of my dogs to hatti and it was ten grand(just to get it there), they did not have the money to take the dog and I donated for a good cause! There is bad places to go (and I was talking to a doctor), and I think you are full of bull hockey!!!!!!!
 
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