Where did the term 'civil' come from?

[ladylaw203]

I was not talking about pedigrees. I am a breeder too. It is about training.we cannot take a sport titled dog and put him on the street without a lot of additional training

[wolfstraum]

Originally Posted by ladylaw203

I was not talking about pedigrees. I am a breeder too. It is about training.we cannot take a sport titled dog and put him on the street without a lot of additional training

no one said that - even though many small departments do buy titled dogs - have seen alot of them...know several NAPWDA master trainers, and more K9 Handlers....

There is an old saying that "Blood will tell" among horsemen....it is applicable to dogs too...problem is that too many can't tell the difference between a sport dog and one who is trained in sport...

Lee

[ladylaw203]

Most vendors import GSDs,mals,and dutchies who are titled or have some training. Not just small departments. No sport only trained dog is ready for the street without further training. Now some departments think they are until they find out differently. I have been a certifying official for many years and we see that. Failed several dogs recently with that problem. They backed up,got further training and passed. Nice dogs but again,no dog with nothing but sport training is fully operational for patrol work without more training:-)

[DFrost]

I run a fairly decent sized police k9 unit and know of several in the area. Titles are just not a concern. While there may some benefit in early stages of sport training, sport dogs need a lot of training before they are ready for the street. I've always like their foundation in ob and I even like FST to begin tracking. Although it's only good to start dogs that way because it's way too slow for real world stuff. I understand breeders being concerned about pedigrees and ancestry, but police trainers just don't care. Adult dogs can be evaluated, the amount of training they have had can be tested and the health tests are pretty conclusive when testing an adult dog.

DFrost

[wolfstraum]

while police officers do not CARE about the pedigree....the pedigree can predict what you should get in a dog.....if I want to breed for LE dogs, I will be more successful using certain bloodlines than others....you may not care what the pedigree says, but you will like certain lines of dogs without checking or knowing the pedigree....while a good breeder can identify those lines and use them to produce certain characteristics...

two sides of the same coin.....just a different position and perspective...

Lee

[DFrost]

which is why I said; "I understand breeders being concerned about pedigrees and ancestry," they need to be concerned if they want to continue selling to police departments. The police trainer is only concerned with a healthy dog that will do the job. if a dog has it, it has it. If it doesn't there isn't much anyone can do to fix it.

DFrost

[Tim Connell]

I always think of it like this analogy:

A sport dog is like a man trained in the sport of boxing. They have been trained within the boundaries of rules. When to maintain control, when to strike, where to target, when to stop engaging. All at the direction of a Judge, and rules, with defined boundaries, of a 'fair fight".

A police dog is like a street fighter, operating without rules of a "fair fight". If a classically trained boxer that has never fought outside the ring is thrown in a street fight, and operates by the rules, in most cases, the outcome may not be favorable. Not because the boxer has a lack of talent, strength, nerve, or any other physical quality- just a lack of exposure to operating in that environment.

In most cases, you can't take a dog that's been trained in a sterile "sport only" environment, and expect it to operate in a realistic environment, if has only seen a sport field. I concur with the others that sport dogs often have great foundations to build upon, but oftentimes many of the issues like environmental stability, etc. necessary for real life deployment have been neglected or minimized since the dog would never encounter it on a sport field, thus has never been exposed to it.

[cliffson1]

Excellent post Tim!!!!!.....That really sums it up.
@DZG.....I raise and send dogs to police depts every year. All of these dogs start at pups and leave me at 18 months to 2 years. They all play with my grandchildren during their stay with me. I have posted many pics of them with the kids. Yet at 18 months they are ready to make the conversion to being a civil dog on the streets. Now I do have the advantage of training with the police and not allowing my dog to become sleeve fixated or I flush out environmental issues, but my point is a patrol dog can be civil from training, and still a great family dog.
OTOH, there are lines of sport dogs today that the breeding practices for years for sport has created dogs that will not make that transition to police work whether it is for environmental issues or civil issues. These sport dogs will do great on the sport field but when confronted with the rigors of what a patrol dog should have as a minimum, they don't cut it. And its not training....its genetics.

[cliffson1]

@ Mrs. K, ......I will say that the bloodlines that your father bred, and I have seen a lot of dogs from these lines can definitely do police service work. But then again those lines are known for their balance of prey and defense, and also for bigtime fight drive

[Mrs.K]

Originally Posted by cliffson1

@ Mrs. K, ......I will say that the bloodlines that your father bred, and I have seen a lot of dogs from these lines can definitely do police service work. But then again those lines are known for their balance of prey and defense, and also for bigtime fight drive

Yup. It sucks that it's over though. Wiandra was the last brood bitch bred by my parents and she didn't conceive the last couple of times Mom was breeding her. She wanted to do one last litter and I was looking forward to a dog out of our own kennel.

Yukon is eight, Yorkan is eight, Wiandra is seven, Toni is nine or ten... that's it. The last dogs out of our kennel. Not sure how many are still out there. I'm hoping that there are still some dogs out of the Y, W and Z litter active in sport and used to continue the line. It saddens me but all good things have an end. But the dogs will live on. It's just getting harder to find them.