Where did the term 'civil' come from? - Page 2 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

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Old 06-29-2012, 04:30 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Ok DFROST means the dog will engage a human without the person wearing a sleeve,bite suit etc. Not a jute junkie. A police dog has to be civil. We have seen sport dogs run around a person looking for the sleeve. Just wanted to clarify the um lack protection........
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Old 06-29-2012, 06:06 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Chuckle, chuckle, you got me. ha ha

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Old 06-30-2012, 01:32 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Thanks Mrs. K. I learnt something today!

Some have said that a police dog is required to be "civil", but I need to understand that some more. Perhaps I misunderstand the intent:

Civil = A dog that *wants* to bite? OR a dog that *will* bite?

I saw a video on youtube of London police k9's biting a protestor who was just standing there, not provoking the dog, this is "civil"??

So I'm thinking civil means a dog that wants to bite and will if allowed to do so.

Given that 99% of the dogs will end up in homes with families (very few make it to k9 service) isn't that just plain dangerous?
And aren't breeders concerned about litigation? Responsibility? People have been sued for much much less

Note: perhaps when the iron curtain was up and border control dogs were required to have a certain "profile" then this was considered acceptable, but apart from North Korea I can't see why anyone would want a "civil" dog today. Yikes!!
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Old 06-30-2012, 03:34 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Training and the situation plays a huge role in it.

At a demonstration the dogs can feel the tension, they are already amped up, they can feel the dynamic so the dog might actually leap forward.

That same dog might not bite a normal person in a regular situation.

I grew up with dogs that had that kind of potential yet these dogs were the most stable dogs I've ever encountered. As a matter of fact, Gildo had it, Olko had it, Satan had it. All three lived in the house, with each other and us kids (said it before). But they also were in the right hands.

In the wrong hands, a civil dog can be a disaster and a ticking time-bomb and dangerous. But it doesn't have to be that way.

It's one of those things. These dogs are also called "Real Dogs" and everyone wants one but not many can handle them.

I know that one of mine has the potential but she's also got over the top prey-drive so the prey drive overrides it. Her breeder warned me about her potential and I know what's in her. I've seen a glimpse of it which is why I don't tamper around with it. I primarily work her in prey. Heck, even in prey I could get her to bite my arm when I move it a certain way.
Sometimes I'm more concerned about her prey and speed than about the civil part. She is the sweetest dog at home but I know what's in her and since we've had that accident with my friend none of my friends is allowed to play with her anymore. Just not worth it...
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Old 06-30-2012, 08:53 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Going back to basics - the work of 'schutzhund' was meant to showcase the stability of the dog and the ability to discern between a real threat and a person in a neutral position....in sport today, dogs are taught to work a sleeve - ie, the "jute junkie" as per an earlier post....but to be fair, that extreme prey drive is a goal in so many breedings!!!!

There are still dogs with the ability and the inclination to engage a threat...who will not focus on a sleeve on the ground while a decoy tries to engage their attention....I think the popularity of the Czech/DDR lines is because of this perception of the buying public...that these dogs will be more protective - ie -will be civil and engage a threat....BUT dogs who engage for real without discernment of a true threat vs a playmate are no more desirable than a prey monster....neither is a balanced temperament

I have had one line now which has produced truly civil dogs - Xito Maineiche to Kyra Frolich Haus (2-5,5 on Lord G. - no Mink or Fero)...Cito (ATB) and Csabre are both very very very 'civil' dogs. Csabre will work hard to engage children to pet her in public....loves them, and yet will work a suit or hidden arm...as a young dog when starting training (~1.5 years old), she would spit the sleeve and go over it to a decoy - to his dismay! When worked by a few very very experienced helpers, these dogs are very real, and Csabre in particular is always praised as a "strong" and "real" female..these dogs are said to "bring the fight to the helper" - Xito was like this too...Cairo from this litter is obedient and adores his handlers young daughter, but is a border (Vermont/Canada) Patrol dog with many drug busts and SAR finds to his credit as well.

My Tom L x Ufo dogs, although very high in prey, have also shown the tendency when called for to show 'civil' temperament -but, like Mrs. K. says, they are generally worked in prey for sport/titles....the Csabre x Ufo pups have shown very good prey, but the civil side is very evident as well. Several of my Ufo grandkids are LE dogs in Europe/

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Old 06-30-2012, 12:18 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Rarely do we police service dog trainers see a sport dog that will fully engage a human without much more training.notice I said fully engage. It is not the fault of the dog. It is training. We do muzzle take downs etc
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Old 06-30-2012, 12:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylaw203 View Post
Rarely do we police service dog trainers see a sport dog that will fully engage a human without much more training.notice I said fully engage. It is not the fault of the dog. It is training. We do muzzle take downs etc
One of the reasons Nala's breeder only sells green dogs to the police and only when they are of a certain age.
Generally he does not sell a single dog without HD/ED results. He brings them up for the job and once they are one year of age, he sells them to the German Police, green.

I must say, I prefer, one/two year old, green dogs, myself. It's so much easier than puppies. Mainly because of the health factor and because you can jump into working them for the job, right away.
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Old 06-30-2012, 12:34 PM   #18 (permalink)
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The main difference in sport and the real world is that we train the dog for a real fight.patrol dogs get kicked,hit etc. That stick in sport is nothing compared to a crook fighting the dog. We train them to fight a human:-)
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Old 06-30-2012, 12:40 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ladylaw203 View Post
The main difference in sport and the real world is that we train the dog for a real fight.patrol dogs get kicked,hit etc. That stick in sport is nothing compared to a crook fighting the dog. We train them to fight a human:-)
I know. My dad used to train with the German and Swiss Boarder Patrol and the Police since he sold lots of his dogs to them. That is how I know where the term "Zivil" is coming from. They are trained to go after "Zivilisten" (regular Citizens) and not a helper hence they are "Zivil" (civil).
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Old 06-30-2012, 01:05 PM   #20 (permalink)
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I do know the difference - the sire of my H litter was a K9/Cadaver dog, who was awarded a "hero" dog status for saving his handler from a knife armed parolee.....and have done a good bit of training with K9 officers....there are lines and dogs out there that are still bred with strength enough for K9 work -

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