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Old 09-30-2010, 10:11 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Unless he is breeding, raising, and putting the preliminary training on the dogs it's hard to believe the dept is buying dogs from him. That is very rare. Most buy green dogs; puppies are a crapshoot and they don''t have the time and money or inclination to invest in a bunch of pups that may not make it.

There are a lot of breeders that say they sell dogs as K9's and for the most part, they are lying.
I agree, but he was a K9 officer, a Major, in said dept. He sold these dogs when they were older, and I don't know the word for it, but they were trained somewhat. Is that what you are calling a green dog? Anyways in 1990, he was getting $10,000 for each dog that the dept bought from him. This is all I know about how his dogs got to be K9's. I can't call him and ask him anymore because he was killed in an accident a couple years ago.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:18 AM   #42 (permalink)
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I agree, but he was a K9 officer, a Major, in said dept. He sold these dogs when they were older, and I don't know the word for it, but they were trained somewhat. Is that what you are calling a green dog? Anyways in 1990, he was getting $10,000 for each dog that the dept bought from him. This is all I know about how his dogs got to be K9's. I can't call him and ask him anymore because he was killed in an accident a couple years ago.
Yes, that's what a dog with some training is called - green.
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Old 09-30-2010, 10:59 AM   #43 (permalink)
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I agree, but he was a K9 officer, a Major, in said dept. He sold these dogs when they were older, and I don't know the word for it, but they were trained somewhat. Is that what you are calling a green dog? Anyways in 1990, he was getting $10,000 for each dog that the dept bought from him. This is all I know about how his dogs got to be K9's. I can't call him and ask him anymore because he was killed in an accident a couple years ago.
Checked that rank, he was a Captain.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:07 AM   #44 (permalink)
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I have never seen training for Police Dogs. I can't comment on if they are trained using brutal tactics or not. However, the trainer I use trains police dogs. She also boards them when their handlers are not on shift.

She has never suggested that any of us (students) ever use any type of hanging or choking of our dogs. She even suggests the use of the halti. I've only seen her actually get physical with a dog once and that was with a 2 year old Pit that had many issues - the dog attacked her. She requested the handler take private lessons.

We questioned her regarding housing the Police Dogs when they are not on 'Duty'. She said that when the dogs come off duty, she lets the run in a kennel for 1 hour. She feeds them and then crates them for the night. She said that it is best for the dog to have a scheduled time to be 'off'. If the officer took the dog home, the dog is still on duty. It creates too much stress in the dog's life to be on duty 24/7.
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Old 09-30-2010, 11:17 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I just wanted to point something out about the method of choking.

Unless they are totally insane, I am guessing theses trainers use this method only when dog goes into defensive/fight drive when it should be calm. Certain situations require that a dog maintain a calm state. Especially when we are talking working dogs and dogs in class.

Since we are discussing protection I am sure we are dealing with a lot of aggresive, dominant dogs, with strong drive.

These dogs can be very challenging to get out of drive so options are limited and by no means is clicking a universal solution.

You would be crazy to put your had near the mouths of certain dogs when they go into drive. Sometimes a food treat is not a viable option. In all fairness, the practice of "choking your dog" should not be demonized when used as a last resort for very aggressive dogs.

I attend begginners obnce class and my trainer has a protection background. A lot of very dangerous aggressive dogs are referred to this guy. I have seen many dogs attack their owners during class. People are very dedicated and serious. I saw a guy finish a class after he had been bitten and obviously needed stitches on his hand.

We use treats but we are taught to use corrections when the chit hits the fan and treats are no longer an option. One of the assistants did mention the hanging technique to me when I described certain aggression issues my dog has. I don't think she was wrong for doing so. I have never seen a dog hung in class but I have wittnessed some serious correction and they were effective.

I think everybody in class cares for and loves their dogs. Nobody enjoys giving a forceful correction but they also don't want their dogs put to sleep.
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Old 09-30-2010, 02:52 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I didn't say anything was right or wrong. I was just saying that the average citizen, and especially the animal rights groups would find the choke method of training repulsive and abusive. .

Admittedly I don't know it all about police K9. I will say, no modesty intended, I do know quite a bit. I would ask for you help though in defining exactly what the "choke method" of training is. It doesn't sound at all like it would be fun for either the handler or dog. At any rate, probably few groups are more under the watchful eye of that fine guardian-of-animals (tongue firmly implanted in cheek) PETA. In addition to their watchful eye is the press. In addition to that is; we are a tax supported agency, meaning all someone has to do is request to attend trainind and, in most cases that request will be honored. No, they can't train with us. There are liability issues. The only thing some people like to see more than a police canine in trouble is one being sued for accidental bite etc. But that's another story altogether.

Just a couple of highlights. Most police departments buy adult dogs. Reason - puppies are a crap shoot. You buy a puppy, spend 18 month or preferrably 2 years raising it and then it doesn't work out. You can test an adult both for the drives you need and the physical health of the dog.

People talk about how much they think police dogs are abused. I won't talk about the 35 year old macho male cop with tears running down his cheek as they bury his partner, instead let's just look at common sense. I want this dog to trust me. I need to trust him. Do you think I"m really going to gain that trust by beating him, choking him, kicking him treating him like crap and the say, ok all is well I need you to work now. Yeah, I know there was a couple of videos of police trainers/officers abusing their dogs. Yes, it looked bad. Very few condsidered the hundreds of us out there ever day that were as repulsed as the non-law enforcement. Those programs usually don't last. Using some folks reasoning, no priest should ever be alone with a boy, dentists should never be allowed to sedate a woman before performing a dental procedure - - - well you get my drift. We have those in any profession that don't do the profession any justice. I guess when someone tells me they heard or they have seen A dog, then proceeds to draw conclusions and make inferences that malighn an entire profession, well, I just think they are jumping the gun and perhaps should become a little more familiar with their subject.

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Old 09-30-2010, 04:29 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Yes, that's what a dog with some training is called - green.

A "green" dog is a dog with no training. Generally, the next level would be a dog with "some" training. Some training generally means the basics, a little obediance, what is referred to as "bite tested", meaning the dog will hit a sleeve. These dogs are often referred to as "partially trained" or "started" dogs. Pretrained, which one would think means fully trained are also available. These dogs still need some work. That work is completed with the dog's new handler during a class of anywhere from 2 to 6 weeks in duration. In the 90's and in fact, up through the horrible events of 9/11, the average price for a green GSD/Mal/Dutchie etc was around 1,200. Many green dogs were available for 800 to 1,000. After 9/11 the price of a suitable purpose GSD/Mal/Dutchie shot up unbelieveably. Today, for a good prospect, usually imported as it's difficult to find the quality of dog needed with the U. S. the price is 6 to 8 thousand. I'm not aware of any department paying 10,000 or more in the 90's for a dog.

Another misconception is the type of dog. High drive, yes. All this talk of "dominance" though is generally breeder talk and not so much the talk of police trainers. The handler has the opposable thumbs. The dog knows who feeds it, waters it, cleans it's kennel and controls it during training. If there is a dog that is aggressive to it's handler it is usually because the dog either doesn't quite have the nerve it should have or it's in conflict because of training. Basically it just doesn't understand what the handler is trying to convey. At any rate, it's more than just because the dog is dominant. Those dogs selected for police work generally do not make good pets. Regardless of what you hear about the dog living with the family, which many do, they are not "pet quality" dogs.

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Old 09-30-2010, 05:17 PM   #48 (permalink)
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I will tell you where I got my info. I can see that different countries and different states employ different training methods. I am only saying what I have encountered, or been told in my area. I come from a law enforcement family... I am not making a blanket statement of all dog units, just what I have learned and seen here over the years.
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I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.

Thats pretty blanket. You did not specify "where I live, this is my experience".

I do agree there are some terrible K9 programs out there. Some of these people have no idea how to train, and the dogs should never be on the street, but to put all of them in the same category is wrong.

Castlemaid and the others who have mentioned the RCMP are exactly right. It is NOT for show, it is how they trained. They have one of the most respected programs around, and their training is sought after across the country and the world. If you knew me, you would know that I don't compliment the RCMP lightly, it down right kills me. But I do give credit where credit is due. I have seen ALL stages of their training, their demonstrations are not public relations. Pretty much any department in Canada bases their training off the RCMP.

As for the original question, I don't know. Here, you can find the unit training every Wednesday behind the main station, out at the airport and in random neighborhoods. We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.
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Old 09-30-2010, 05:20 PM   #49 (permalink)
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As for the original question, I don't know. Here, you can find the unit training every Wednesday behind the main station, out at the airport and in random neighborhoods. We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.

You've made a very good point. I forgot about the literally thousands of "YouTube" videos that are available. They show police training and actual deployments. There are as many as anyone wants to view. The problem is, the facts won't fit the beliefs so why bother. It's more fun to trash what they don't know about.

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Old 09-30-2010, 05:26 PM   #50 (permalink)
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As for the original question, I don't know. Here, you can find the unit training every Wednesday behind the main station, out at the airport and in random neighborhoods. We have had visitors observe, videotape and do regular demostrations. No hiding, no secrecy.
Our SchH group trains at a fire/police station in a field behind the station. It is very visible to traffic and there are trains going by constantly(backing up the traffic).
We put on quite a show for the people waiting. I bet they think it is the police K9's training, people will come up to watch(apartments nearby as well).
There are a couple of LEO's who train w/ us now and then, but not doing anything more than having fun doing SchH.
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