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Why is police dog training trying to be kept secretive?

26K views 143 replies 48 participants last post by  pache11 
#1 ·
I was always wondering ...

Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public.

What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.
 
#98 ·
A few dozen. You have very limited exposure. That explains a lot.
One does not fool a certifiying official. The dog passes or the dog does not.
There are agencies with dogs that need better maintenance training just as there are trainers and vendors who put out junk. ;) Nothing is 100%
 
#99 ·
Don't even try it. :laugh: I WORK a few dozen.

If a dog is tricked into the correct behavior and it's known that that behavior will not hold up for very long once the dog is back on the street, and a someone certifies that that dog is fit for the street, that person has been fooled.

But I'm sure that wouldn't happen to you. With your skill and vast experience you could never be fooled by my shabby training.
 
#106 ·
I work with a few dozen a year...mostly when it's time to re-certify and they have to put control back on the dog so they can fool the certifying officials.;)
Sounds kind of like the type of lax training that a few officers do that everyone is complaining about. Isn't a trainer who tries short-term tricks and teaches the officers to fool the officials the problem?:confused:
 
#107 ·
Isn't a trainer who tries short-term tricks and teaches the officers to fool the officials the problem?:confused:
The standard is: the dog must release the bite and return to the heel, upon command. Please explain to me how the officer fools the official.

The standard is: the dog will, when commanded, stop pursuit of the suspect, without biting and return to the handler.

The measurement of both these behaviors is very simple. The dog either did it or he didn't. There isn't a graduated scale of almost, close, 70%, good enough etc. How exactly, unless the official is just plain crooked, does the "dog team" get credit for doing it correctly, if they don't. Is the dog being "tricked"? I don't know some may call it a trick. I prefer to call it training. Bottom line is, the dog either does it or he doesn't.
That's why I asked for an explanation of "tricked" or "fooled". Obviously you folks have certified many dogs in police service work and know some secrets many of us just haven't learned yet. Please share. I mean I was even taught the secret handshake, but still don't know the trick or how to fool the certification official. If you mean they cheat, say so. A serious charge however, I would hope if someone was to make that charge they would have proof.

DFrost
 
#108 ·
Sorry if I didn't sound sarcastic enough. That was not meant to imply that I thought short term fixes could get one through certification.

I meant that if a trainer had such "tricks" that the trainer who claimed to help the officers would be the problem if these "tricks" were used.
 
#109 ·
The problem is not whomever is helping the k9 unit. The problem is a lack of supervision over the k9 unit. I was the training director for a k9 unit for one of the largest Sheriff's dept in Texas. I had my own set of requirements over and above any national cert that also had to be passed. I had mandatory maintenance training etc. There is no reason for a last minute fix to pass a yearly cert if the unit has proper supervision. :)
 
#111 ·
K9 handlers in our department are required to have 16 hours of canine inservice monthly. All of the training is documented and reviewed by the K9 Director. To the best of my knowledge, the three largest K9 certification agencies recommend 16 hours per month as well. As Renee stated, while we adhere to the requirements of one of the larger canine certification agencies, the department has its' own standards that exceed those of the certifying agency.

DFrost
 
#112 ·
In addition to the 16 hours of mandatory inservice there is also a great deal of extra work that is done to ensure that officers in the street know what to do while the dog is working and so there will be efficient searches if the dogs work with other dogs from the same, or other departments at the same scene.

Perhaps some areas are shoddy in their training, but I am not in an area like that.
 
#114 · (Edited)
I was always wondering ...

Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public.
What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.
Vohne Liche Kennels

This kennel is the real deal...many of my states K9's come from here. I don't think they want or need an audience to view training, and if you did, IMO, you should pay the same as what the depts are charged to train these great dogs.
 
#124 ·
Good post Renee and Frost,
People have so little knowledge of some things and such big opinions...recipe for ignorance.
BTW, We just had our annual SDA trial and we had active police officers from Region 15 USPCA, trial in our Police Dog title. (Region 15 is home of K9 Schultz and I was told his handler was at the trial that day....I was competing so missed him). Anyway, though this isn't training it is a public forum in which people could see active police dogs work. Different states and departments have different rules and regs often based on the opinions of the Solicitor for the K9 units governing body.
 
#126 ·
I have not posted in this thread because I'm not from your country not your culture but, regarding to the original question:

Why is police dog training trying to be kept secretive?

My only answer is... why they should show anything but results? :shrug:
 
#127 ·
I am a civilian that has been invited to and attended training sessions during a 16-week police dog certification program in Ontario, Canada during which I watched one of the dogs that I raised be trained for building searches, obedience, tracking, article/area searches, narcotic searches, bark and hold work, agility and bitework. I did not attend all sessions, but the sessions I did attend WERE NOT brutal at all (and this is coming from a reward-based trainer). All dogs were composed, no unwarranted aggression and all were safe to be around on and off leash. I have had 2 dogs go through and certify under this program and neither one is any different in their character and temperament, both are still very spirited. All of my questions were answered by the head trainer, I was involved in a few exercises as well.
I have had access to "ride-alongs" with my local community K9 unit where we went on real calls (I stayed in the car when they tracked the criminal though), drank coffee LOL, did some obedience and laid a 1/2 km track in my bitesuit in the middle of winter only to be found and detained by the dog.
I have been invited to attend law enforcement K9 seminars held in the U.S. as well (but have yet to attend, my budget is not quite there).

The agencies have been very, very good to me, the difference being, I had assisted them with their own dogs (working through training issues privately) and provided other agencies with dogs that are now in service.
I believe, from my experience, that law enforcement is a serious line of work. The K9 officers are bombarded with all kinds of ridiculous and often repetitive questions from the general public on a daily basis. On top of that, people who do not even have a clue what the job entails seem to stop to give them training advice. I can understand why they are so guarded about having people out to their sessions. I found that if you keep your mouth shut, get to understand what the job is about, ask intelligent questions (and keep your opinion to yourself), and keep your mitts off the dogs the officers and trainers are more receptive to allowing you to view training exercises. This has been my experience at least, and I have met some truly excellent, knowledgeable people that have and continue to provide me with guidance as I prepare and place more dogs into service.
Of course, there are always going to be conflicting personalities that, for one reason or another, have a bias against civilian involvement or have ego issues, but the majority are very willing to share information with you and answer questions. They are human so they are not all perfect.

Cheers,

Mike
 
#129 ·
We donated our Black Lab (for reasons I won't get into on the public board) to a training facility for Police Canines. She was trained to be a dang good K9, Alley became the first Drug Detection K-9 in Thunder Bay, Ontario and made one of the largest drug busts ever. I know she was treated with love, sometimes that love had to be "tough love", her life as a K9 was a good life, but the "tough love" was necessary for her to do her job and for her to have a life.
 
#130 ·
They won't cross train with our club (I've been told)... which is odd because several club members are on the LEO K9 supply & training side for a living lol. They source dogs from them, and will let them train their dogs, but won't cross train with a civilian club
 
#131 ·
They source dogs from them, and will let them train their dogs, but won't cross train with a civilian club
There are number of reasons. Our department is the same way. Any law enforcement can train with our department at no cost. We do not train with civilians for a couple of reasons.

1. Liability. Like it or not, this is a society that loves a good law suit. Lawyers can hear a potential law suit a mile away. someone gets hurt (and it is possible) The department is thought to have deep pockets - - viola' you have a law suit.

2. I'm the trainer for a large department. I can't charge people to train, I'm paid, by the state, to do that. If I train them for free (at the state's expense) then I'm competing with someone that is trying to train dogs for a living. I have no overhead, no expenses that come out of my pocket. Plus I don't have to take off work to train a dog, it is my work. It just isn't fair.

That is just a couple of the reasons.

DFrost
 
#133 · (Edited)
I realize this is an old thread, but in case anyone is just stumbling on it like I did, I can personally vouch for the fact that it's not all secret. One of our local K9 units trains with the local Schutzhund club regularly (sort-of separate but some stuff jointly, it's neat to watch), and their trainer also regularly works with local K9 SAR teams as a volunteer clinician. The latter isn't quite the same as watching them train, but we're still learning his methods and he talks a lot about training police dogs. Both the local K9 units (county and city) also regularly give demonstrations at public events like the State Fair or animal-related fundraisers (recently I saw them at a big fundraising event for a new facility for the county animal shelter), and actually try to bring a mixture of dogs from ones just starting in their training to experienced K9s.

A random member of the public wouldn't be allowed to sit in on one of their regular training sessions (except the weekend one they do at a public park with the SchH club), but I think that's more about liability and distraction than anything. Having curious onlookers at every training session would get very tiresome I'm sure, so a blanket ban makes sense to me. It's the same reason why they now restrict ride-alongs to people who have a reason--people who want to become LEOs or other first responders and need the experience, volunteers like police chaplains who do it as part of their training so they can understand what the officers are experiencing, that sort of thing. They used to allow anyone with an interest to go, but it became overwhelming and distracting (and thus dangerous) to the officers, so they restricted it to special circumstances.

Some methods they use in training might be bad publicity because training working dogs isn't always pretty, but honestly I think that's a pretty minor concern for my local police. I've actually seen one of their closed sessions and didn't see anything that most people would really have a problem with. I realize that's just one session and as others have said, training methods vary by department, but I'd be surprised if it's a PR thing for them. In fact, generally APD encourages interest in and questions about their training methods, as part of a strategy to rehabilitate their image (as a department they had many problems with corruption and excessive violence, to the point that the current chief of police was appointed specifically to reform the department, so it may be a bit of an unusual case, I will admit).

My mom is a police chaplain, I give clinics to the mounted police unit occasionally, and I'm a member of a K9 SAR team that works with the police trainer I mentioned, so that's where my knowledge is coming from, just for full disclosure. :)
 
#134 ·
One of the guarded secrets is how to effectively hide scent from a k9. Not too many ways but a major secret.

Also most cops only train with cops. The problem is that just because you are a LEO k9 trainer, that does not make you a good trainer.

Sometimes problems that are created at their facility are fixed by non LEO trainers.
 
#137 ·
One of the guarded secrets is how to effectively hide scent from a k9. Not too many ways but a major secret.

.
I think that statement is funny. What we know about hiding scent from K9's is learned from those that are doing it. Drug runners can be very crafty in their concealment. There are no schools that I know that teach the proper way to hide drugs. While we certainly try to replicate what we see in the real world, it is that "real world" that is the teacher.

DFrost
 
#135 ·
In our area, there is quite a bit of crossover among our civilians and police...

Having said that, there are some who feel they are a bit elitist, and won't train with civilians at all...they probably don't want people to see their less than impressive dogs. :)

Some places simply won't let them train outside their "training circle"...they are not even allowed to train with other police that are not part of their clique.
 
#136 ·
Any organization that has been in place for a length of time develops folks that take an eldest attitude about what they do and who they will do it with. I agree with D Frost about the logistical reasons depts. frown on or prohibit commingling of training with civilians. Even though I am granted access through my USPCA membership, and consulting in training, and a state vendor for procurement,....I still find officers that ask to train with me on the QT. it is what it is.
 
#138 ·
LEO K9 handler here. I haven't read every comment but some are a bit disturbing to me.

As far as watching our training sessions, it wouldn't be beneficial to us if every person knew our dog's commands. We don't want the bad guy being able to "OUT" our dog and make him lay down. My working dog was trained in Israel and understands commands in Hebrew. Some are in Dutch, some in Polish, some German and so on. Some handlers make up their own commands just for the above mentioned reason.

Our dogs are chosen because they are super high prey & hunt drive. These dogs would make terrible pets but are well suited for police work. They need to be mentally stimulated numerous times throughout the day, even on our days off.

Our dogs typically hit the streets when they are 18-24 months old. These dogs LOVE to go to work. They hate it when their handlers have a class or court and are forced to stay at home.

These dogs are treated like NBA superstars; being with your dog 40 hours a week you notice little things about your partner. As soon as we see something irregular, they're taken to the vet and get superstar treatment and leading edge care.

Our GSD police K9s usually retire at the age of 7 and typically live with their handler to a nice ripe old age. We have lost several dogs to gunshots, getting hit by cars and one during a horrific accidents while riding in their K9 vehicles. However civilian dogs can also suffer these types of fatal endings. The big difference is when a regular dog dies, the funeral is not attended by 200+ police officers and another 100 K9s.

Police dogs do many functions that their human counterparts are unable to accomplish, and they love every minute of it.

If you want to see some police dog training in action, watch the show "ALPHA K9" on NatGeoWild. It is a very typical police/military K9 training facility.
 
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