German Shepherds Forum banner

Why is police dog training trying to be kept secretive?

26K views 143 replies 48 participants last post by  pache11 
#1 ·
I was always wondering ...

Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public.

What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.
 
#44 ·
I have never seen training for Police Dogs. I can't comment on if they are trained using brutal tactics or not. However, the trainer I use trains police dogs. She also boards them when their handlers are not on shift.

She has never suggested that any of us (students) ever use any type of hanging or choking of our dogs. She even suggests the use of the halti. I've only seen her actually get physical with a dog once and that was with a 2 year old Pit that had many issues - the dog attacked her. She requested the handler take private lessons.

We questioned her regarding housing the Police Dogs when they are not on 'Duty'. She said that when the dogs come off duty, she lets the run in a kennel for 1 hour. She feeds them and then crates them for the night. She said that it is best for the dog to have a scheduled time to be 'off'. If the officer took the dog home, the dog is still on duty. It creates too much stress in the dog's life to be on duty 24/7.
 
#45 ·
I just wanted to point something out about the method of choking.

Unless they are totally insane, I am guessing theses trainers use this method only when dog goes into defensive/fight drive when it should be calm. Certain situations require that a dog maintain a calm state. Especially when we are talking working dogs and dogs in class.

Since we are discussing protection I am sure we are dealing with a lot of aggresive, dominant dogs, with strong drive.

These dogs can be very challenging to get out of drive so options are limited and by no means is clicking a universal solution.

You would be crazy to put your had near the mouths of certain dogs when they go into drive. Sometimes a food treat is not a viable option. In all fairness, the practice of "choking your dog" should not be demonized when used as a last resort for very aggressive dogs.

I attend begginners obnce class and my trainer has a protection background. A lot of very dangerous aggressive dogs are referred to this guy. I have seen many dogs attack their owners during class. People are very dedicated and serious. I saw a guy finish a class after he had been bitten and obviously needed stitches on his hand.

We use treats but we are taught to use corrections when the chit hits the fan and treats are no longer an option. One of the assistants did mention the hanging technique to me when I described certain aggression issues my dog has. I don't think she was wrong for doing so. I have never seen a dog hung in class but I have wittnessed some serious correction and they were effective.

I think everybody in class cares for and loves their dogs. Nobody enjoys giving a forceful correction but they also don't want their dogs put to sleep.
 
#52 · (Edited)
#53 ·
some very interesting articles. Some, trainers will agree with, some, trainers disagree with. One thing to point out, it's not secret. People are able to gain access and read them, just as the OP did. The discussion about negative punishment, positive punishment etc means exactly that. It's a discussion. Anyone that trains dogs uses negative and positive punishment as well as positive reinforcement. It's kind of the basics of operant conditioning. Which, of course, is pretty much what all trainers do regardless of what they are training. Sure, there are new words to describe the funcitons. You can't sell books and go on the lecture tour using the same old terminology. It's kind of like the "clicker" phase. We were using in the the late 60's to train mine, tunnel and trip wire dogs. Nothing new, just new words to it. By all means, read the police articles pointed out. You'll find some very professional trainers and you'll see that there really aren't all that many secrets.

DFrost
 
#54 ·
I have been a police k9 handler and trainer for over 20 years as well as a certifying official for the largest police k9 organization in the nation. Although there are those who use poor methods as do horse trainers etc,police k9 training methods are not cruel. A large group of us use motivational training methods. So, NO, that is not why we do not allow spectators except at demos. You will not watch our SWAT team training either. We never know who is watching and any screwup can be fodder for some defense attorney. Now we have phone video and everything else so it is closed.
 
#58 · (Edited)
When I was trying to get a grip on Onyx's fear aggression I consulted two retired LEO K9 trainers(one was a friend of my DH's best friend).
Both suggested choking her off to get her to submit or use an e-collar and stim her when she acted aggressively. .

I talked with each one extensively and one guy I still keep in contact with.
They were trainers in the 60's thru late 90's...I think training has come a long way since then and so does the one I still talk with.
He has his bitesuit and other equipment stored in his polebarn/I keep asking him when he wants to donate it to our club! I'd like to see the old sleeves just out of curiosity.
I chose to go with Leslie McDevitts Control Unleashed methods to manage her instead of their suggestions.
 
#59 ·
I know how they train K9's and it's not pretty. It's why the dogs are wired and hyper, and they don't live very long.
I would like to know how you know about police K-9 training. I have seen many training sessions as a civilian observer. My wife has worked as a civilian volunteer in the kennels. As a Sheriff's Deputy Sgt. I have worked with the dogs from 6 departments. I saw no real stressful training practices. The drive of the dogs does tend to get them rather worked up when they have their collars on. I have played with off duty dogs and officers' kids.

As for restricting observation of training, I would assume it is to avoid civil liability issues. I did lots of paperwork to be listed as a civilian volunteer. It might also be to keep the general public from knowing the language each dog is trained in and if there is an off command that they will take from anyone.

The dogs retire early because if there is a health issue they will work too hard and make it worse. I have seen officers with two retired dogs at home and one at the kennel (no room for a third kennel at home).
 
#64 ·
The dogs retire early because if there is a health issue they will work too hard and make it worse. I have seen officers with two retired dogs at home and one at the kennel (no room for a third kennel at home).

I don't get this "retire early" line of thinking. What is early? Put it in perspective for me. We spend a lot of money buying and training dogs. I'm going to keep that dog working as long as he can phycially perform. If you research the GSD breed, the average life span, depending on who you chose to believe is anywhere from 9.5 to 14. Personally, I think 14 is more the exception than the average. none the less, it's not uncommon for a dog to be working into it's 10th year.

As for being secretive; we must not be doing a good job keeping it secret. Seems there are a whole bunch of folks that know all about it. All one has to do is read this thread. by the way, my dogs are taught in English, no fancy words. Sit, down, stay, mean exactly what you would think. Get him means, ---- well, get him. The key is, the dog only listens to the handler, not the word used.

DFrost
 
#67 · (Edited)
Wow at the beginning of this thread I was thinking that I sure have missed a lot. Hanging dogs until they about passed out and I think it was suggested that the dogs are given drugs so they will search harder for them. Yikes .... now I know the secrets too. (Well not the secret handshake yet but maybe someday.)

So, the things that I heard and saw have all been PR. No wonder the budget is tight. Double training is involved.

And to think one of our local drug detection dogs is so dumb that he thinks a good reward is a tennis ball - stupid dog if he held out he could get part of the find. And then there is the patrol dog that after running someone down and holding he later gets to play with his handler with a tug. Another stupid dog as he could demand to be able to go chew awhile on "the bad guy".
 
#68 ·
Wow at the beginning of this thread I was thinking that I sure have missed a lot. Hanging dogs until they about passed out and I think it was suggested that the dogs are given drugs so they will search harder for them..
One of the reasons I started participating in some canine forums were because people actually believed what you just joked about. I do admit, there are some trainers that embarrass us and use techniques that are cruel and unneccessary. I'll also point out, there are doctors, lawyers, investment brokers etc that also break the law and now follow policy. Not all breeders are puppy mills, not everyone is in the breeding business solely for the money.

At any rate, trainers giving dogs drugs to make them perform better is the second biggest myth when it comes to dog training. I'd point out that heroin, for example is an depressant. Just how is this dog supposed to work when he's stoned. ha ha. While it wouldn't take much to convince me that some Mals are indeed on crack, they really aren't. Imagine a dog that will work that hard for just a tennis ball, rolled up towel, jute tug. That's what we look for. Just one part of the test I use to select a dog. I pick it up from where ever it is. I take it to someplace it's never been, no one around the dog knows, I throw a ball in grass that is at least 1 foot tall. If the dog will not continually search for the ball for at least 2 full minutes, no marking, no messing around, just continually looking for the ball, the test is over and the dog goes back. If it can't do this simplest part of the test, there is just no sense in going on. Just for the record, we don't give them drugs, we don't give bomb dogs explosives either. We don't bite our patrol dogs to make them bite. We don't feed them gun powder to make them mean. Oh yeah, people really ask that.

DFrost
 
#69 ·
Well ... I can't speak for departments in general or specific states in particular, but I did just come back from the Green Mountain Iron Dog, which is a competition in Vermont that is for both police K-9 teams and civilians, with several of the competitive events being law enforcement only (such as the drug search and building search) and several being shared.

So, based on the folks I've met there - more law enforcement teams than civilians - and interacting with them, talking with them, etc. here's my opinion.

First, choking a dog off the bite is not the norm among law enforcement agencies. It is not with the military and it is not with the (mostly Vermont) K-9s I met at the event. Actually, one of the required tasks in the building search is to CALL the dog off the bite AND back to the handler, no physical contact allowed. (The officer remains at the threshold throughout the search and gives no commands to his dog except to call him off the suspect and back to him.) As most dogs ran 17 and 18 second times in the building search between entering and returning to the handler after getting a bite, it stands to reason that they had no issues getting their dogs to "out" on command and therefore have no need to choke their dogs off to get compliance.

All but one of the handlers I talked to at the event take their dogs home where they are a part of their family. Their kids play with the dogs - several of their kids and spouses were at the event, too, playing with the dog, petting the dog, holding the dog. These dogs go home after their shift and interact with the family, they don't go back to the kennel. (Military working dogs, on the other hand, go back to the kennel, not home with their handlers.)

As far as "obvious reasons" why civilians may not be allowed to observe normal training would be the liability factor. What happens if you position yourself where you shouldn't be and the dog bites you, for example? That seems to be the most obvious reason I can think of.

Then, of course, there would also be a concern about screening people to ensure that they don't show all their training secrets to crooks who would use them to "reverse engineer" the dog's training. When civilians request to do a ride-along with a local law enforcement officer, they generally have to do paperwork, get fingerprinted, and pass a background check before they're allowed - they don't just get to ride along. Again, it should be obvious WHY. I would assume that something similar could be done for someone wanting to observe K-9 teams but such a program, unlike ride-along programs, are not generally in place in most areas.

Just some thoughts.
 
#70 ·
Is a dog ever choked off a bite? Let me present a scenario; You have a high drive dog. The dog was picked becasue he had solid nerves. He has the level of fight drive necessary. One of the strongest reinforcements for a dog like this is the fight. Now you take the instinctive behaviors of breathing and survival. Now you have a drugged out moron, the dog is deployed, which is one of his jobs and the moron wants to fight. He bounces the dog off the floor, walls, tries to choke him, hits him, kicks him etc, etc. This person is fighting with an animal that likes to fight. Most dogs in this situation are going to be reluctant to release on command. The dog is "in the zone". That's real life and situations like that happen. Choking is also a safety measure to lessen injury to the person being bitten in a situation like this. It's no secret. These dogs, as has been said, are not the type of dog you generally see in a living in someones house as a pet. they are truly working dogs.

DFrost
 
#71 ·
Is a dog ever choked off a bite?
Re: the above, I suppose one should also mention that there are some departments that maybe don't work as much on a reliable out (or on basic obedience) as they should.

I believe K-9 Cop Magazine recently had an article on teaching a reliable out that cited exactly that (not enough basic obedience, not enough focus on the out) as two of the primary reasons why some dogs don't out and why some handlers take the "easy" route and choke their dogs off the bite.
 
#73 · (Edited)
When I was Copping the secret handshake was the same as a regular handshake. Did it change?
Since all cops are still Masons who are controlling the world it has not changed :laugh:


On the serious end, There are still a few officers that use outdated and cruel training techniques. Just as there are some civilian shepherd owners who do the same.
 
#78 ·
After dealing with/and trying to deal with police departments for many years, and being a dog trainer, I have to put an opinion here.
The police seem to think that because it's a police dog, you should not and could not know anything about their dog or their training. The attitude I get from the local police is "You're not a cop, so you don't know anything about training police dogs".
I always point out that the police wear nice boots for work, and I don't think a cop put their boots together. And they drive around in a nice, big police car. And I don't think a cop built their police car!
So the local police live in their ignorance, and try to train their dogs. The sad part is, I've been doing Schutzhund, the basis of police k-9 training, for about 20 years. I've also trained dogs for narcotic detection. But because I am not a civilian police officer, I am considered useless to the local police. (I spent 6 years as a military police officer in the Air Force).
And after dealing with/trying to deal with police departments for many, many years, I've come to a conclusion. 85% of police officers are/were bullies, know-it-alls, or bullies who know-it-all. The other 15% are honest, hard working people who are pretty much normal.
 
#79 ·
To give you an example of what I'm dealing with here in Az. - I had a FULLY TRAINED Malinois I imported from Germany. He could detect 3 types of narcotics, do protection work, and obedience. Little kids could hug him, and he loved it. I had him for sale for $4500. And I let all the local departments know about the dog, and that he was for sale. It took me over a year to sell him...and I sold him to a Native American tribe. This dog would be their first k-9. He worked out great, found many many pounds of narcotics, and is now retired.
One of the local departments that wouldn't even look at this dog went and bought a 15 month old shepherd that had no training for $5500! A GRAND more than my fully trained dog!
Wonder why taxes are always going up?!?!
 
#80 · (Edited)
There isn't anything secretive about police dog training. Schutzhund is NOT the basis of police dog training. while there may be some similarities, PSD is not a sport. I don't know why some department didn't want to buy your dog. My guess is, it just didn't meet the standards required. There are many trained dogs purchased by police departments, from civilian vendors each year. The vast majority of them still go through a course specifically for police. Generally, as in dogs with most sport venues, such as schutzhund, ring etc, they are equipment fixated. That must be worked on before being put on the street. You said the dog you were selling was trained on three drugs. Where did you get the drugs to train? What drugs was the dog trained to detect. Since untrained dogs are going for anywhere between 5 and 7 K, I know I would sure at least take a look at any dog for 4,500. In the end it's selection, not price that makes the difference before a purchase. I personally evaluate and have the vet checks done before I buy any dog. I don't know why they didn't buy your dog. My guess would be it just didn't have those characteristics we look for. It sure wasn't because of some double naught secret spy stuff, only us police canine trainers know. I spent 23 years in the Air Force. All but 3 of those years were in the MWD Program. I would disagree with you about only 15% of police officers being hardworking and honest. I've been a police officer for the past 21 years. I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt, but the dog business is a tough business. You're basing this, from what I can read anyway, on one incident that happened several years ago.

DFrost
 
#81 ·
Anyhow, back to the original question. K-9 training for police is no different than anything else. They don't want the public watching qaulifying with guns. They don't want the public around when their officers are being tased. They don't want the public around when their officers are being sprayed in the face with mace. Despite how "fun" it would be for you, me, and your mother to watch the different training methods, the last thing officers in training (whether dog or human) need is to micro-manage the public while trying to get serious training done.

Sure YOU might quietly sit off to the side and observe from a distance. But Joe Blow and his wife Jane have 3 obnoxious little kids who they can't control, think it would be fun to let the kids run around the field, and make snide comments like "ugh, that's not how I do it with MY dog." And I'm sure if a prong was brought out you might have some crazy woman screaming about how they should only be using positive methods. Or some loadmouth guy loudly declaring that they are all idiots that can't train. Or.....ok, well I hope you get the point.
 
#82 ·
I think each department trains their dogs differently and gets their dogs from different places.

So can a person go and watch police dogs being trained or no?Does it depend on the department?(My department closes to me with a k9 unit is LAPD).
 
#83 ·
I think each department trains their dogs differently and gets their dogs from different places.

So can a person go and watch police dogs being trained or no?Does it depend on the department?(My department closes to me with a k9 unit is LAPD).
Training may be different. It's the jobs or specific tasks that are pretty much the same. Police dogs are certified to a standard. The standard, whether it's a state POST standard, a certifying organization such as; California Police Working Dog Association, North American Police Work Dog, Unites States Police Canine Assoc, International Police Work Dog Association etc all have relatively the same standards. What that means is, while training may differ from department to department, the tasks the dog is required to perform are pretty much the same and are measured, regardless of the certifying agency, to pretty much the same standard. For example; drug dogs may be "trained" differently. Almost all certification agencies, including state POST require; an observable response at an acceptable proficiency rate, with a minimum falst response rate. No matter how the trainer may train the dog, they still have to perform that task to be a drug dog. Police Canine standards, while not actually set by courts, are very sensitive to previous court rulings. Most of what a PSD is required to do is a result of some court ruling.

People are permitted to observe us train. There are no secrets. There is of course some training that people aren't permitted to observe, but that's because of location, not the type of training. Some places we train are restricted entry. Some places we train may be a closed business, with the approval of the business owner of coure, at midnight. They (business owners) don't want other people around for several reasons. Sometimes we're doing training where there could be some liability to innocent bystanders, of course we are not willing to accept that liability. I have people stop by and observe us train quite often. There really isn't any smoke and mirrors or double naught secret spy stuff. There are only a few things I do not share in public forums about what we do. One is the explosives we train the dog to detect. Another would be tactics for deployment in dangerous situations. While mostly, it is common sense, it's just something police officers, canine or otherwise, don't discuss.

DFrost
 
#84 ·
In delaware we have a LOT of K9 units, mostly i think because of the huge amount of violent crime in wilmington. Litteraly every other squad car or police SUV has a dog in the back of it. Because we are so crammed in in this little state of ours, If you go by any local little league field or soccer field, there is a good chance you'll see a k9 working desperatly to recive a pat on the head and a chance to chew on his favorite kong, if they are keeping secrets here, they need to work a lot harder on it...
 
#86 ·
I was always wondering ...

Unless you are K9 police officer or possibly press, you are not allowed to observe a police dog training sessions. I already tried. At least that's how it is here in the state of NY. Why is this? Are the cops scared that criminals are going to pick up on their "secret" training strategies or random john doe's are going to produce cop dogs which go out and bite the public. Does police dog training really have to be kept a secret? How come retired K9 cops are allowed to pursue a career in dog training and share their "secrets" with the public.

What am I overlooking here. Your thoughts are appreciated.

its business, its all about the competition and who can produce a stronger dog. dogs in programs are sold, and if you have others learning your practice then your training value goes down.
 
#87 ·
In the city where I live the police training is "secret" but it is still pretty easy to gain access. My wife has helped with dog training and for tactical training last week they had about 40 people helping as a mall crowd for a shooting scenario. No one is allowed to video or take pictures but it is a pretty open secret. I have checked a little more and it does vary a lot in how hard it is to get access to LEO training. I found several areas where even other officers are not allowed to watch dog training. I think it is to prevent law suites from people who are denied access, just keep everyone out.
 
#88 ·
Most agencies conduct public controlled demos from time to time. The main reason we do not allow random to folks to watch is simple. In this day of cell phone video etc, we do not want video of dogs working. When I give seminars, no video. There are tons of "expert" witnesses for the defense that use that video against us in court. Folks on juries are not dog trainers. Some fast talking "expert" can get on the stand and convince them that a dog was false alerting, handler solicited the alert etc. Not true, but it comes down to who is the best talker. Just a fact.
 
#89 ·
What a laugh. Are you saying that the justice system all comes down to who the best talker is? :confused: Great atitude for a member of the "justice system" to have.:crazy:


The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street. They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs. I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.
 
#90 ·
What a laugh. Are you saying that the justice system all comes down to who the best talker is? :confused: Great atitude for a member of the "justice system" to have.:crazy:
A realistic attitude, spend any amount of time in court and you will see that often it is not a matter of the truth as much as it is being able to verbalize your side of the truth. "If the glove don't fit..."

The reason most departments don't want you to see them train is because the dogs are not able to consistently meet the standards. When they can't meet those standards in a training situation it becomes hard to prove that they are meeting those standards on the street.
Are you basing this on time with the dogs. I am in an area that allows some public access and I am a LEO so I see the standards that are well maintained in my area. We even have friendly competition to keep the best dogs. It is fun to see the other department's dogs come out and help us with searches.

They also want to keep up the facade that police dogs are super dogs.
I agree with that. Any limitations in a security system should be kept confidential so it will not be abused.

I don't think that LEO officers are wrong in their stance of no spectators, but let's try to keep it real.
I agree with that as well
 
#95 ·
The K9 guys around here used to have observers on a regular basis. They trained here with us and the only days that were closed to outsiders was when they were working on area searches since we didn't random people wandering through the training. Sometimes it would be closed when there were new guys since it made them nervous to be watched while they were trying to learn new skills.
When we used to train the Macon guys, they used the local high schools football stadium and there were always people in the stands watching (including the "groupies").
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top