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Questions about PP dogs

20K views 143 replies 30 participants last post by  Dalko43 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi guys I have some questions about protections dogs.

Is it better to buy a protection dog as an adult, or buy a puppy and raise/train it yourself?
If you buy it as a puppy, do you pay someone to train it, or do have to pay someone to mentor/train you and then you train your dog?

Im not really in the market for one at the moment. I have a 9 month old puppy at home. Id like to wait at least another year, maybe longer, before we get our second dog. Just kind of looking into the idea for now.

Two days ago, a man followed a mother and daughter, broke into their house, less than a mile away from mine, in the middle of the day and tried to kidnap a young girl. It was Saturday, everyone was home. Thankfully the father was able to fend the creeper away. It really freaked me out though. I'm a stay at home mom and I have a daughter the same age as the young girl. We walk/bike ride to school twice a day, we walk our dog all over our neighborhood everyday, multiple times a day. I just want to feel safer. I've thought about purchasing a gun for a many years. The main reason I haven't done it yet is because the city I live in, doesn't hand out permits to carry concealed weapons. I'd basically have to leave it at home. Also it makes me nervous to have guns at home with kids.

I have a taser but honestly, my husband tested it on himself and his brother and it didn't seem to faze them all that much.

I realize some of these PP dogs are very expensive. I don't really know if I would want a dog that did actual bite work or just kind of stand its ground and look tough. Then again maybe some barking wouldn't deter an intruder. I don't think our dog could go into this kind of training. We got her to be our family pet. Plus she's pretty small, only weighing in at 50 pounds at 9 months. She might end up weight less than 60 lbs as an adult.

Anyway Im all over the place with the idea. Just wondering what you guys think. Thank you.
 
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#5 ·
Puppies are a crap shoot. No guarantee that the little 8 week old puppy is going to mature into a dog with the nerves capable of doing what you want. Plus you then are without protection for the 3 or so years it takes for the puppy to mature and undergo training.

As far as size... those 50 - 60 lb malinois I've seen at IPO certainly seem to hit the sleeve pretty dang hard.

It may be worth it to you to atleast get your girl evaluated. Even if you dont start doing bite work with her teaching a good vicious bark on command. Is an awful good deterent.
 
#7 ·
So in your opinion buying an adult trained dog is a better option that buying the puppy with potential?

Yeah I think I'll look into getting my girl evaluated. If we could train her to at least stand her ground and look/sound scary, that would be great.

There is some kind of creep lurking my neighborhood... Looking for some peace of mind.
 
#8 ·
My former 60lb rally-o & agility trained gsd looked plenty scary if aroused. Safe enough, great pet dog, a joy to train, and not a liability on a leash.

Statistically speaking, how likely is it that an intruder will be bothering you next?

On the other hand, dog sports are fun. A gsd that will do a bark and hold, impressive.
 
#11 ·
Statistically speaking, I don't know. I do know he is around my neighborhood and I do know that we hang out in our neighborhood every single day, multiple times a day. About 4 months ago the school sent us an email saying that a guy tried to pick up a couple young girls walking to school. The girls got away thankfully but I just know he is around. 4 months later he was touching himself in public, followed a mom and daughter all the way home and broke inside, on Saturday. All this happened within one mile of my house, on our route to the dog park and the kids park and my daughters school. Its just really scary.
 
#14 ·
Honestly, for run of the mill, I heard a scary thing on the news last night, I want to feel safer, this (minus the bandanna) will do;



That's my 60 lb (waiting at the rainbow bridge girl).

Will 2nd zetti, if you really need to have a weapon on a leash, make sure you get a reliable one, great nerves, awesome training, and then you need to be on the ball for 'regular maintainance' in terms of training, exercise, practice, not sure if that's really worth it in response to a news item etc....

I have a bike gang member (confirmed) living down the street, some years ago, a dude was shot & left in the woods down the street, 'stuff' happens.

I now have this on leash...and am not feeling any more or less secure (and am less likely to do something stupid like confront illegal atv drivers on conservation lands, yep, did that with the gsd's giving me a false sense of security)
 
#15 · (Edited)
I can't make any recommendations on PPD-oriented trainers/breeders in your neck of the woods, but as others have said, you really need to do your homework to separate the pretenders from those who are truly experienced and good at what they do. If I were you, I would reach out to some local IPO club members, or a similar dog sport club, and talk to them to get a better feel for the breeders and trainers in that area. I can't stress enough how you need to be careful going down the PPD road; some so called "trainers" are putting out poorly trained and poorly socialized dogs. Not only could they fold under pressure, but they could also preemptively lash out at people who aren't true threats.

Also, not to get too personal with this, but what exactly is your crime situation where you live? Is this one incident with the creepy guy the only thing that is motivating you to look into getting a true PPD? If this was an isolated incident, I think getting a highly trained, highly expensive PPD might be an overkill (though this is totally subjective). A more manageable dog solution might be to get a loyal and smart breed; something like a properly socialized doberman or rotweiller, or even a pet-line GSD, could easily intimidate most would-be intruders while still serving you well as a friendly, easy-to-handle family pet. Just the presence of a dog, period, is enough to intimidate a lot of robbers and home invaders, simply due to the ruckus they will cause.

If crime truly is an issue where you live, a PPD can work. You'll need to spend a lot of time researching and finding the right breeder; and it will cost you a lot of $. Mace is another option. I'd recommend looking into getting a concealed carry permit too, though it sounds like your area is very restrictive on that (which is unfortunate).

Ultimately, you need to do a real thorough self-analysis of what level of responsibility you're willing to take on and what level of protection you think is warranted.
 
#17 ·
I will make sure to do enough research on the trainer. I will take my girl to an IPO club and see where that leads. The trainer we have now used to train military dogs for years so Im sure he can also point us in the right direction.

Um our neighborhood is generally nice. Suburbs, lots of dog parks, kid parks etc.. I wouldn't call it dangerous. We don't have gangs, just some kind of psych pedophile. We do have tons of bike paths that crisscross and have no road access, which is how I think he keeps getting away. We do spend a lot of time in our neighborhood everyday. walking to school 2x/day & walking the dog 2x/day, dog park and whatever other shenanigans we get into.

Anyway no this incident isn't the only reason why Im looking into a PPD. Ive been thinking about a gun for years for peace of mind but not sure if a gun would really give me that. Then I might just be worried about the kids getting a hold of it. Im a stay at home mom and spend a lot of time alone with my toddler. My dog is great but she isn't protection trained.

In my opinion mace it not that effective. You have to have it in your hands, it wont always stop someone, you have to be somewhat close to them. Its just like the taser that I already have. An a CCW is impossible here.

Thanks everyone. You guys have given me a lot to think about.
 
#18 ·
I think a couple people here including myself have been involved in incidents where their (at least in my case) non-PPD trained dogs protected them.

I will say, you are better off shooting a guy dead than having a dog do so much as nick them with a claw. That is, of course, only if you have justified cause to be in fear for your life.

Because basically homeowners hear "dog bite" and roll over and settle. It's a pretty messed up system, I've done my research quite a bit on this issue.

I never see actual "PPDs", anywhere.

I don't know. I think a well trained GSD that will bark on command, that's all you need generally.

I honestly run away first, and would only have the dogs to do their thing if I was left with absolutely no other option. Even if your state has it, "stand your ground" doesn't seem to apply to dogs. For instance, if someone jumps your fence and gets bitten in Connecticut, dog is always liable.

In any encounter, I would do my best to have presence of mind to video tape or record (call a friend or even 911 to record the whole thing or just go to a voice mail) so they could hear me at least warn the guy off multiple times and what was going on. It's a messed up world, but with America's litigation, do your research on PPDs.
 
#19 ·
If you're concerned about your personal safety when you're out and about, don't under estimate the value of good, rock solid obedience training.

It's human nature. People see a German Shepherd walking beautifully at your side, sitting automatically when you stop walking, you two in perfect harmony. Anyone with ill intentions is likely to wonder: what ELSE is that dog trained to do? Is that some sort of security dog? A K-9?

Compare that to what goes through your mind when you see a GSD bouncing around at the end of the leash, paying no attention to the handler, darting around, sniffing everything. Not exactly a threatening picture to a Bad Guy, is it?

I've experienced the Parting of the Red Sea effect at enough ATMs after dark to have seen this work. And with some of my friendliest dogs.

If you get into a really tight spot, bluff. Grab your dogs collar and tell her something like "Not yet, Rocco , not yet, easy." That sort of thing.

My own personal bias is toward IPO obedience. I like the way it's taught, with the emphasis on a visibly harmonious relationship between dog and handler. Assuming you find a good club.

Criminals look for easy prey. Arming yourself with a well trained GSD makes you much less attractive to a predator . Ideally, you will look like more trouble than you're worth and he'll move on.
 
#80 ·
If you get into a really tight spot, bluff. Grab your dogs collar and tell her something like "Not yet, Rocco , not yet, easy." That sort of thing.
I really love this! It reminds me of when I play hide and seek with my pup. I grab her by the collar and pull her back and it gets her so pumped up to find the person. When I finally let go she flies!
 
#20 ·
Muskeg brings up some good points about liability issues. But I also think the context matters. If a burglar or aggressor gets bit while trying to invade your home or attack you, I think they'd have a very tough time bringing successful litigation against you in either civil or criminal court. It's like the old wives tale about a burglar falling through a glass skylight onto a homeowner's kitchen table and getting cut by a knife and then suing the homeowner...makes for a great story but the reality of such scenarios is much different.

All that said, you do want to find the right trainer, which it sounds like you plan on doing. If your dog does bite someone where a bite wasn't warranted, then you will have potential legal problems on your hands.

I won't press the concealed carry permitting anymore other than to say there are ways, through training and locks, to keep firearms out of unintended hands, like those of your kids. But that's a comfort issue, and you need to be willing to handle that high level of responsibility on a daily basis in order to go that route. Tazers and mace are very much good alternatives, albeit not nearly as lethal, obviously, as a firearm. With tazers especially, they can stop a man in his tracks if used properly...you can go watch some youtube clips for proof of that.

My final note of caution on the PPD option is this: at the end of the day, a PPD is a living, breathing animal. A well-trained one can serve you well and still provide great companionship for the family, but they can misjudge situations, be tricked and even be killed (if the opponent it's facing is determined enough). If you're situation is bad to where you're worrying about your family's safety, have alternative ways to defend yourself or mitigate risk. Don't put all your eggs in the PPD basket. Not that I think there are a whole bunch of dog-killing psycho's lurking in the shadows waiting for the right opportunity to strike, but if you're worried about threats that can't be dealt with using a tazer or mace, I'm not sure a PPD will solve all your problems either...that or you have an unrealistic perception of the threats in your neighborhood.
 
#21 ·
Chances are lower with a puppy of getting what you need. If you are serious and can afford it you buy a trained adult that has the correct temperment, genetics and health for the job. A decent dog with proper training can easily run you 20k.

No your local IPO club probably cannot help you nor will they likely want to help you other then selling you a washout. I play in IPO and I will say many clubs dont have a clue what make a good PP dog or what training is required to make one.
 
#25 · (Edited)
If you need protection, the first step is paying attention. Learn to be observant of your surroundings and avoid dangerous situations.

Next, you have to arm yourself. A PPD is a much higher liability risk than a firearm in the hands of a well trained person. Yes, you can't recall a bullet, but with training, you won't make the mistake of accidentally shooting someone unless they need it. Guns are a daily part of my life, and have been as long as I can remember. I got my first 22 when I was 5. My kids and grandkids were all taught firearm safety from a very early age. If you are in a situation where you feel you may need to protect yourself against a determined attacker, a firearm is definitely the safest and cheapest means of protection IMO.

If you feel a PPD is worth the liability, money and sustainment training, you should get a trained dog, or at the very least, a tested green dog you can then attend a club with or work with a LE trainer in your area. I would stay away from the PPD only flashy website guys. They will sell you a dog for $80,000 that will supposedly stop any man and also wash your windows. It's all hype. If you want a PPD, get one from a LE and MIL trainer / broker / vendor.

I would visit Bay Area K9 Association and see what their training is like.

If I needed a PPD tomorrow, I would go to Vohne Liche Kennels, or Loganhaus Kennels and have them help me select a dog. They are both reputable MIL and LE vendors, and can help you find the dog that meets your needs.
 
#26 · (Edited by Moderator)
If you need protection, the first step is paying attention. Learn to be observant of your surroundings and avoid dangerous situations.

Next, you have to arm yourself. A PPD is a much higher liability risk than a firearm in the hands of a well trained person. Yes, you can't recall a bullet, but with training, you won't make the mistake of accidentally shooting someone unless they need it. Guns are a daily part of my life, and have been as long as I can remember. I got my first 22 when I was 5. My kids and grandkids were all taught firearm safety from a very early age. If you are in a situation where you feel you may need to protect yourself against a determined attacker, a firearm is definitely the safest and cheapest means of protection IMO.

If you feel a PPD is worth the liability, money and sustainment training, you should get a trained dog, or at the very least, a tested green dog you can then attend a club with or work with a LE trainer in your area. I would stay away from the PPD only flashy website guys. They will sell you a dog for $80,000 that will supposedly stop any man and also wash your windows. It's all hype. If you want a PPD, get one from a LE and MIL trainer / broker / vendor.

I would visit Bay Area K9 Association and see what their training is like.

If I needed a PPD tomorrow, I would go to Vohne Liche Kennels, or Loganhaus Kennels and have them help me select a dog. They are both reputable MIL and LE vendors, and can help you find the dog that meets your needs.
Unfortunately in places like NYC, Chicago, Detroit, you can't carry firearms. Seems like only the criminal can and good law abiding citizens aren't allowed to do so. When I lived in NYC I would see some of the most **** up stuff imaginable, and all I can do to feel safe was walk around with a big ol' GSD. He was not trained in PP, but he was big and mean looking and that was all I needed to keep bad guys away from me.
 
#27 ·
I just wanted to amplify something David said. When you put the PPD training on a dog, you are committing yourself to continuous training. Like every week so that you are well practiced and in control. It must be part of your lifestyle. You just don't train them up to PPD and then think you are good to go forever. That is when the risk of a bad situation and liability increase.

My two are not PPD trained at all, one is a SAR dog, both protect the house and no one is coming in uninvited. I have complete confidence in that.
 
#28 ·
I have been contemplating getting a ppd as well when I move to a country where the police are less reliable. But this whole thread is making me question the need for a trained ppd. So what I am hearing is it is not so much the training or the breed so much as the actual temprament of the dog that really will decide if he will protect you from getting attacked. Having a big intimidating looking dog also helps.
 
#31 ·
I am telling you that without training you won't know if the dog will engage an attacker, you won't have control over the dog if it does engage someone and you won't really know what to do yourself in that type of situation. Training builds confidence in the dog as well. It also allows the dog to be clear headed in a fight because it's just another fight, something they do all the time.

Military and LE dogs are required to train at least every week. This isn't because departments just want to spend money on K9 programs.

MMA fighters train every day to do something they are genetically predisposed to be great at.

If you buy a dog, never train it, never practice, never learn what you need to do, and never evaluate the actual temperament of the dog under pressure, you are just fooling yourself if you believe that dog will reliably engage an attacker.
 
#33 ·
It depends. That's like asking how long it takes to build a house.

And what does predictable mean to you? I can find you a dog that will predictably be run off by any attacker without much trouble at all. If you want a dog that will predictably not engage a target without command, will fight until outed, and will out on command, that takes some work.

What is the background of the dog? KNPV PH1? Did it come from a MIL / LE vendor who trains initial bitework and OB? What are it's current strengths and weaknesses?

Who is training and handling the dog? How often do you train?


The only solid answer to getting a real PPD is to buy a real PPD. Everything else depends on too many variables to answer any questions with any real hope of accuracy. There is a reason some vendors have hundreds of dogs in the system. Even with solid testing and medical screening, dogs still wash out for any number of reasons.

If I was going to get a pup or green dog with hopes of training it in protection (real protection, not sport) I would be sure to get a dog from a reputable breeder that produces working dogs and I would talk to them about my aspirations for the dog. I would also decide before I got the dog where we were going to train and talk to them about PPD prospects.
 
#35 ·
Training using prey drive is not about the dog killing anything IMO.

Bitework on a good dog is more about control than teaching it to bite something. It is obedience while extremely excited or angry or both.
 
#36 ·
when you are afraid is the worst time to buy a dog for protection .

this has to be a clearly thought out decision with full appreciation on what your role is in the team.
+ + + + everything that David Winners has already pointed out !

I would do something that makes YOU exude confidence . Take up some martial arts . Just the change
in posture and physical confidence will start taking you off some predatory creeps victim list .
 
#37 ·
Play drive, which looks like prey, is not about killing anything; prey drive depending on nerve and fight components in the dog can be asset in PPD.
Frankly, a good GS with strong genetic traits should have discernment to protect home, property( like your car) and your persons. This PPD having to be a fighter against unreal odds, like a gun, or a battalion of people is really unrealistic expectations of PPD efficiency. But it is realistic for a good GS to defend home or be deterrence, to protect owner and property with and many cases without training. I know of countless folks over the years that had GS that were superb guardians and were never trained....GENETICS......Yes, you can define boundaries and limits better by training, but frankly without genetics you can't do the training anyway.
 
#38 ·
Cliff I agree . Finding a good , balanced dog is not as easy any more.

Then there is the problem of the buyer actually knowing what a good dog (for the job) is.

On this forum you have so many examples of people buying the pup that charges out , barking,
hackling , thinking that "this" is your protection candidate . NOT.

Then there is the big problem of those people raising the dog properly - which opens up
another huge thread on the "early socialization" sticky ---- got to do something about
a tired pup is a good pup -- because that does not get you where you want to go.

A tired pup is a tired pup , often running in a deficit position.

So the dog, the raising , the training, the right attitude from the owner and continual good management, and that
does not even include the ability to wash out a candidate that is not suitable .

big order
 
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