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Old 10-17-2013, 05:58 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hello there,

I've been researching different trainers, looking for someone to work with, or someone I can learn from in training my own pup once I find the right one. I have found a variety of "options" out there - some places want you to leave your dog with them for a month and they "magically" come out as a perfectly well-mannered dog. Some places charge you an arm, a leg, and your first born (and your dog's first born) and all you get is basic obedience. There are a few I have seen that I'm impressed with - they train you AND your dog, so your dog bonds with you, and not a stranger. Makes sense to me.

The most astonishing thing I have found is a "trainer" claiming to use violence to train them to real life situations. They boldly claim to use a "hard bamboo stick" AGAINST your dog ("so they know aggression") and they will also "push" your dog "hard into: doors, walls, counters, tables, and chairs. This, like any combative training, helps to condition and ensure that they will stay in the fight."

They claim that their dogs are "compassionate, loving family members as well as precise, effective tools..." So...hitting a dog with a stick makes him compassionate. Oh ****, I've been doing it wrong for years.

Really? Is this truly NECESSARY? Abuse my dog so he will attack anyone wanting to break into my home?

Please forgive me if this sounds ignorant, but is that sort of abuse truly the best way to train a dog? It sounds like a poor method to me. Has anyone ever heard of this sort of "training" and its effectiveness? Don't get me wrong, I would never buy a dog from a "trainer" like that, nor would I ever train my dog by showing him the "real world" in that manner...I'm curious to know if anyone has heard of this sort of thing?

Here's the website: Ultimate K9 | Protection Dog Training | Milwaukee, WI
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Old 10-17-2013, 07:12 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I wonder what is the law in US about cruelty to animals? There must have been such cases in the court! Any good trainer would tell you that separation with his owner causes a terrible trauma for any dog. These poor dogs end in shelters, absolutely psychologically damaged. Nobody can train them any further.
The dog should never be blamed of being agressive, only human could be the reason. That is true even for ASTs. Many people who claim here that their dogs are non-agressive GSDs - simply do not realize that that is their nice personalities make their dogs so lovely. Sweet voice makes your dog sweet, it's easy. If there is a harmony in the family - dogs wouldn't bite children. The worst scenario - when the two argue in high pitched tunes, than, just wait, one of them would be bitten, if not both.
To fight agressiveness in agressive GSD is the most wrong thing to do. Instead - you fool him. If he is young, he will forget his bad experience, if treated nicely first of all. Your answer to all your questions is in the dog's hunger. Even if he is not much food driven, wait until he is very hungry. Feed him one of his daily meals out of hand for a week. By putting a tiny pieces on your palm train him to lick your open palms. Train him to receive a slice of cheese out of your mouth. Walking in the house make him following you by feeding one bit at a time some kibble. But, don't give it for nothing, ask him to sit, bark, etc. Avoid any forbidding commands, if you don't like something call your dog to yourself and ask to sit for a treat. Just agree with his dominance for a while, ignore his self-protectiveness. Agression in GSD is nothing else but outgrown fear, as the fear differs from agression only in amount of adrenaline in the blood. Your dog was abused, and it is not your fault.
Find a professional Schutzhund club and start obedience there. But... Don't tell them your story, it would scare them.

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Old 10-17-2013, 07:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
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By the way... In training a guard dog ( different than Schutzhund sport protection), in order to cause pain a whip is used, never a stick. A stick can cause damage to the liver, kidneys, and even break the rib of the dog.
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Old 10-17-2013, 08:16 PM   #4 (permalink)
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I have never trained in PP. however, I believe it is very common and part of training a true PPD to really push them. To have the decoy truly act like a threat.

In a true situation, a perp is going to hit, kick, slam a dog into any surface they can to stop the attack. The dogs need to be trained to handle that type of offensive attack from the perp. True PPD dogs are not born. They have to be trained to continue the attack no matter what is happening to them.

I doubt this is the correct trainer for what you want to achieve with your dog. But if you were looking for a dog that would NOT bite and run and truly engage with a threat, then maybe.

All this said, I did not even go to the website. Just went off what you posted.


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Old 10-17-2013, 09:07 PM   #5 (permalink)
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True PPD dogs are not born. They have to be trained to continue the attack no matter what is happening to them.


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I would disagree with this. They are certainly trained to promote drive and fight, however it takes a very special temperament. Most dogs, even most national level bite sport dogs will pick flight over fight when it comes to a TRUE confrontation. It takes a very special dog to not back done from those situations. Those are temperaments the dog is born with.



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Old 10-17-2013, 09:59 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Most dogs, even most national level bite sport dogs will pick flight over fight when it comes to a TRUE confrontation.
That's right. One dog amazed me at our Schutzhund club. She was the only one unmuzzled and unleashed, because she wasn't agressive to other dogs. While we were drinking coffe in the hallway, she dragged dirty suite to our decoy and started to bark at him, clearly saying:"Let's go! It's enough!" This illustrates the relationship between the dog and his "prey" in Shutzhund.
In guard training, which has nothing to do with the sports, the story is different. The guard dog, as any other working dog, must have specific upbringing in accordance to the future role. A guard dog is a raised killer, probably one in hundred GSD puppies are born with necessary qualities. From the very first day with his owner/handler he learns to dominate over the human. He is threatened in different ways different times of the day and night, and in struggle, or pretended struggle, he must always win. Beating him with a whip or a bat, kicking him ( that should be done professionally, so, not to cause any damage) and suffocating him on the ground is meant to inspire more confidence in the dog, it teaches him to avoid the kicks and hits. His determination to pull the decoy down shoud help him to ignore any type of a gun shot, or any other distractive noise. You should have a very special reason to wish to have such a dog, but, I suppose, someone cannot sleep in peace without.
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Old 10-17-2013, 10:00 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I would disagree with this. They are certainly trained to promote drive and fight, however it takes a very special temperament. Most dogs, even most national level bite sport dogs will pick flight over fight when it comes to a TRUE confrontation. It takes a very special dog to not back done from those situations. Those are temperaments the dog is born with.



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You are right. There is a lot that goes into a true PPD. Basic temperament being one of them. But even the most solidly tempered dog HAS to learn to fight THROUGH the attack of the perp. This is not something that most dogs are born with. It has to be trained, BUT can only be trained correctly in to a dog with the correct temperament. So I conceded to that.

It would be very rare for a dog, of any temperament, without training, to fight through a true attack by the perp.


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Old 10-18-2013, 04:23 AM   #8 (permalink)
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It would be very rare for a dog, of any temperament, without training, to fight through a true attack by the perp.


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And I'll agree 100% to that

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Old 10-18-2013, 08:39 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Its very easy to sensationalize this topic which the op is doing. Phrases like abuse your dog kind of turn the discussion into a "when did you start beating your wife?" type of question. Imo proper protection starts with a motivational foundation in bitework and obedience. You build the dogs confidence and technique. Once you have a solid foundation you can layer on pressure. Yes that to my mind includes hard stick hits and pushing the dog into things, screaming etc. The more pressure you apply in training the more prepped the dog is for the real deal imo.

However, if they like some pp trainers are just taking your green dog back tying him and beating him till he bites thats not a good thing.
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Old 10-18-2013, 12:58 PM   #10 (permalink)
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I can see both sides of the argument - that by teaching the dog to go through the pain, through whatever...he can protect his human. But it seems a little extreme to use a stick, and to push, kick, and throw the dog around.

Honestly, I would never use a trainer I question...but I was curious about whether or not this sort of "abuse" (my opinion, might not be anyone else's) is a successful training technique. It seems to me that it would teach your dog to bite at every loud voice or bump. Hm
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