Please Critique this second session of Attack Dog training, as my eye says great!!

lone Ranger · 02-19-2013, 08:52 PM

I am training my third GSD now. I will be seeing a female of the last litter that bred this Dog you will see in the Link, on Sunday, and have pick bitch of the litter.. He is as mellow as can be, will lay and play with puppies, and be "Mr. Meet and Greet" of visitors, yet is fearsome at 120 lbs and to my uneducated eye seems a natural here in PPD training.

This is only his second session. Further we are on a little island of only the population of L.A. spread over 5000 kms, and do not have your resources in dogs and training... And forgive me, but to my eye this is pretty bloody good. Please critique and tell me what I don't see, or congratulate me for getting a Bitch from his mother to continue the line...

Either way, thank you for your comments and help..
lone Ranger, out doing "Dances with Wolves" as best I can with horses and GSDs on the last Frontier..

BTW, I went to Yellowstone dead of winter to see the wolves in action in January... THIS GUY could fit right in there... heh he, even looks the part..

Secrets To Remember - YouTube

**JakodaCD OA** · 02-20-2013, 07:43 AM

I can't really comment on his abilities for ppd training, I'm not that educated in that dept.

However, I will say, he's a nice looking dog, overweight in my opinion, and looks like he's ready to keel over from a heart attack maybe because of the heat & weight issue?

**Chris Wild** · 02-20-2013, 09:24 AM

He definitely needs to lose some weight and get in better physical condition... but that speaks to the owners not really the dog. I see a dog who should be around 100lbs maybe, not 120.

As for the work, the dog doesn't look bad but I don't see anything spectacular either. There's no real pressure being put on him, there is a lot of prey attraction by the helper and not much in the way of actual threat, and the bites are poor. I'd want to see a full grip on the bitebar of the sleeve, not a shallow frontal grip with immediate pulling back on the end of the sleeve. But the sleeve work and bite presentations are so bad he really isn't given much opportunity to take a good bite so we can't tell if he would or not. I'd say the dog has some nice potential from that little clip, but I wouldn't necessarily jump to "PPD superstar" conclusions from what I see there. Too many unknowns and there is a lot that remains to be seen about the dog that isn't illustrated by that video.

**Castlemaid** · 02-20-2013, 09:36 AM

Nice dog with a lot of potential. Will scare people away, and that is mostly all the protection that most people need.

Agree that he looks quite heavy - Where are you located? Looks like a warm dry place - he will work better and be more comfortable if he gets trimmed down.

The agitator is working the dog in prey only - now depending on your dog's temperament, and his level of training, working in prey drive only is not a bad thing. If you want a real PPD that will fight a real threat, he will need to be tested in defense and see what he has in him.

My off-the-cuff opinion after seeing the agitator work, is that the trainers you are working with may not understand how to push a dog into defense and work them in that state.

The grips are hectic and shallow, but that is not the dog's fault, the decoy is setting up the dog for such grips - does not look like he is wearing a regular bite sleeve, so for his own protection, I can see why he is presenting the end of the sleeve for the dog to bite, and creating more hecticness by bringing out prey-driven behaviour when the dog is on the sleeve. But without a proper bite sleeve that will give the decoy proper protection, this is not something that can be fixed.

But I understand that resources and experience may not be what is available in larger population centers - you have good control on the dog. Could show more focus and life in-between the bites. For a beginner dog he is showing a lot of good stuff. He will probably do fine for what you want him for.

At the very beginning of the video, the dog is showing a bit of insecurity and avoidance, but quickly gathers up his energy and focuses it on the decoy in front of him - for only a second training session, he is doing just fine.

(LOL, posted same time as Chris, seems we pretty much saw the same thing).

Wild Wolf · 02-20-2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Wild

He definitely needs to lose some weight and get in better physical condition... but that speaks to the owners not really the dog. I see a dog who should be around 100lbs maybe, not 120.

As for the work, the dog doesn't look bad but I don't see anything spectacular either. There's no real pressure being put on him, there is a lot of prey attraction by the helper and not much in the way of actual threat, and the bites are poor. I'd want to see a full grip on the bitebar of the sleeve, not a shallow frontal grip with immediate pulling back on the end of the sleeve. But the sleeve work and bite presentations are so bad he really isn't given much opportunity to take a good bite so we can't tell if he would or not. I'd say the dog has some nice potential from that little clip, but I wouldn't necessarily jump to "PPD superstar" conclusions from what I see there. Too many unknowns and there is a lot that remains to be seen about the dog that isn't illustrated by that video.

Agreed.

I am not a fan of his bites/grip at all, but the helper is setting him up for failure in this instance IMO. Whether or not it is genetic is another issue, but he also looks like he is lacking confidence to put his whole heart into the bite which is part of having good fight drive. If you're just looking for the intimidation factor, it's fine. If you want and need a dog to do it's job when the real threat is there, you need a dog that has strong fight drive, great solid nerve and confidence to "fuel" a good, hard bite with a full mouth grip.

robk · 02-20-2013, 11:24 AM

I agree with what has been said as I saw the same things as well. Keeping in mind that this is not IPO training per say, I would still like to see a better presentation of the sleeve and encouragement of a calmer grip. I did not like it when he let go when the helper pulled back. If his grip was solid he would have held firm until given the out command. Other than those issues (which are not the dogs fault) he looks like a nice dog to me.

lone Ranger · 02-20-2013, 05:43 PM

Thank you all for your comments...

The why of it, is I am so impressed with the dog and size, I am getting a female from the same line exactly. He was out of the last litter, and this female born a week ago will be the last litter from this 48 kg Bitch and 52 kg Stud dog of this Working Line Breeder..

This film is a bit obsolete, as the Owners/Trainers recognized his weight problem, and he is already down from 50 kg to 47-48. Everything you have said is true, but I was impressed as this was only his second training session for a young dog...

He is so powerful, I think they wanted to make sure his recall was good, and his obedience was good, to recall and heel, before they take it to the next level. It looked to me that he was only offered the end of the sleave out of a bit of respect from the Trainer, and his Owner said he would have gone for the whole enchilada if he got off the lead.

I thank you for your comments, bearing in mind a young Dog, second session, respectful Trainer, I thought it was a very good showing... Thanks again for the Critique

Kind regards from Australia, Dry conditions? Summer going to Autumn here...

Nigel · 02-20-2013, 06:49 PM

I know nothing about this kind of training, but I have a question. When people talk about transition, is this in regards to the dog going from biting on the sleeve excitedly to the more clam state directly after?

x11 · 02-20-2013, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lone Ranger

or congratulate me for getting a Bitch from his mother to continue the line...

Either way, thank you for your comments and help..
lone Ranger, out doing "Dances with Wolves" as best I can with horses and GSDs on the last Frontier..

so yr going to breed her cos Sarge is overstandard size, dark and has had two sessions in PD work??? any other criteria to prove breeding worthiness?????

just asking not being a negative person or anything like that.

**gsdraven** · 02-20-2013, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by x11

so yr going to breed her cos Sarge is overstandard size, dark and has had two sessions in PD work??? any other criteria to prove breeding worthiness?????

just asking not being a negative person or anything like that.

I don't think this is the OPs dog in the video but a dog from a previous litter that would be half sister to his pup.

02-19-2013, 08:52 PM	#1 (permalink)
lone Ranger Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 275	Please Critique this second session of Attack Dog training, as my eye says great!! I am training my third GSD now. I will be seeing a female of the last litter that bred this Dog you will see in the Link, on Sunday, and have pick bitch of the litter.. He is as mellow as can be, will lay and play with puppies, and be "Mr. Meet and Greet" of visitors, yet is fearsome at 120 lbs and *to my uneducated eye seems a natural here in PPD training.* This is only his second session. Further we are on a little island of only the population of L.A. spread over 5000 kms, and do not have your resources in dogs and training... And forgive me, but to my eye this is pretty bloody good. Please critique and tell me what I don't see, or congratulate me for getting a Bitch from his mother to continue the line... Either way, thank you for your comments and help.. lone Ranger, out doing "Dances with Wolves" as best I can with horses and GSDs on the last Frontier.. BTW, I went to Yellowstone dead of winter to see the wolves in action in January... THIS GUY could fit right in there... heh he, even looks the part.. Secrets To Remember - YouTube Last edited by lone Ranger; 02-19-2013 at 08:56 PM.

02-20-2013, 07:43 AM	#2 (permalink)
JakodaCD OA Moderator Join Date: May 2000 Location: Old Lyme, CT USA Posts: 17,537	I can't really comment on his abilities for ppd training, I'm not that educated in that dept. However, I will say, he's a nice looking dog, overweight in my opinion, and looks like he's ready to keel over from a heart attack maybe because of the heat & weight issue? __________________ Diane Danger Danger vom Kleinen Hain aka Masi "Angel" Jakoda's Bewitchen Sami CD OA OAJ OAC NGC OJC RS-O GS-N JS-O TT HIC CGC "Angel" Steinwald's Four x Four CGC HIC TT Harmonyhill's Hy Jynx NA NAJ NAC NJC RS-N JS-N HIC Jakoda's Jagged Edge

02-20-2013, 09:24 AM	#3 (permalink)
Chris Wild Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Michigan, USA Posts: 13,033	He definitely needs to lose some weight and get in better physical condition... but that speaks to the owners not really the dog. I see a dog who should be around 100lbs maybe, not 120. As for the work, the dog doesn't look bad but I don't see anything spectacular either. There's no real pressure being put on him, there is a lot of prey attraction by the helper and not much in the way of actual threat, and the bites are poor. I'd want to see a full grip on the bitebar of the sleeve, not a shallow frontal grip with immediate pulling back on the end of the sleeve. But the sleeve work and bite presentations are so bad he really isn't given much opportunity to take a good bite so we can't tell if he would or not. I'd say the dog has some nice potential from that little clip, but I wouldn't necessarily jump to "PPD superstar" conclusions from what I see there. Too many unknowns and there is a lot that remains to be seen about the dog that isn't illustrated by that video. __________________ *Wildhaus Kennels*

02-20-2013, 09:36 AM	#4 (permalink)
Castlemaid The Administrator from the Great White North, eh? Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Northern British Columbia Posts: 11,174	Nice dog with a lot of potential. Will scare people away, and that is mostly all the protection that most people need. Agree that he looks quite heavy - Where are you located? Looks like a warm dry place - he will work better and be more comfortable if he gets trimmed down. The agitator is working the dog in prey only - now depending on your dog's temperament, and his level of training, working in prey drive only is not a bad thing. If you want a real PPD that will fight a real threat, he will need to be tested in defense and see what he has in him. My off-the-cuff opinion after seeing the agitator work, is that the trainers you are working with may not understand how to push a dog into defense and work them in that state. The grips are hectic and shallow, but that is not the dog's fault, the decoy is setting up the dog for such grips - does not look like he is wearing a regular bite sleeve, so for his own protection, I can see why he is presenting the end of the sleeve for the dog to bite, and creating more hecticness by bringing out prey-driven behaviour when the dog is on the sleeve. But without a proper bite sleeve that will give the decoy proper protection, this is not something that can be fixed. But I understand that resources and experience may not be what is available in larger population centers - you have good control on the dog. Could show more focus and life in-between the bites. For a beginner dog he is showing a lot of good stuff. He will probably do fine for what you want him for. At the very beginning of the video, the dog is showing a bit of insecurity and avoidance, but quickly gathers up his energy and focuses it on the decoy in front of him - for only a second training session, he is doing just fine. (LOL, posted same time as Chris, seems we pretty much saw the same thing). __________________ Lucia Keeta BH, OB1, TR1, AD Rottweiler/Hairy Dog mix?? Shelter rescue Gryffon Vom Wildhaus BH

02-20-2013, 11:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
robk Elite Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Fayetteville, NC Posts: 1,526	I agree with what has been said as I saw the same things as well. Keeping in mind that this is not IPO training per say, I would still like to see a better presentation of the sleeve and encouragement of a calmer grip. I did not like it when he let go when the helper pulled back. If his grip was solid he would have held firm until given the out command. Other than those issues (which are not the dogs fault) he looks like a nice dog to me.

02-20-2013, 05:43 PM	#7 (permalink)
lone Ranger Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2012 Posts: 275	Thank you all for your comments... The why of it, is I am so impressed with the dog and size, I am getting a female from the same line exactly. He was out of the last litter, and this female born a week ago will be the last litter from this 48 kg Bitch and 52 kg Stud dog of this Working Line Breeder.. This film is a bit obsolete, as the Owners/Trainers recognized his weight problem, and he is already down from 50 kg to 47-48. Everything you have said is true, but I was impressed as this *was only his second training session for a young dog...* He is so powerful, I think they wanted to make sure his recall was good, and his obedience was good, to recall and heel, before they take it to the next level. It looked to me that he was only offered the end of the sleave out of a bit of respect from the Trainer, and his Owner said he would have gone for the whole enchilada if he got off the lead. I thank you for your comments, bearing in mind a young Dog, second session, respectful Trainer, I thought it was a very good showing... Thanks again for the Critique Kind regards from Australia, Dry conditions? Summer going to Autumn here...

02-20-2013, 06:49 PM	#8 (permalink)
Nigel Elite Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,468	I know nothing about this kind of training, but I have a question. When people talk about transition, is this in regards to the dog going from biting on the sleeve excitedly to the more clam state directly after?

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