Please Critique this second session of Attack Dog training, as my eye says great!! - Page 4 - German Shepherd Dog Forums

Increase font size: 0, 10, 25, 50%

GermanShepherds.com is the premier German Shepherd Forum on the internet. Registered Users do not see the above ads.
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-21-2013, 08:48 AM   #31 (permalink)
Banned
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Jeff. County, NY
Posts: 9,001
Default

And I should clarify that I didn't want to say that my dog is better I just wanted to show that size isn't something that makes a dog good or bad.
Mrs.K is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 02-21-2013, 11:07 AM   #32 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
martemchik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,880
Default

The whole bite thing is interesting...I watched a demonstration by my local police department and their dogs. They definitely didn't have full bites...dog after dog just bit the person (in full suit) on the arm with just the front of the mouth. Seemed to me like it was actually trained into them. Kind of bite hard enough to bring down, disarm, but not really go overboard and injure/break something.

As to the size thing...it's an interesting discussion. I'm not judging the fact that you think a working dog should be bigger...but I'd like to see the police department dogs in Australia. The reason the United States military has switched over to malanois these days it pretty much due to size...humans can walk much farther than dogs can, sometimes the soldier has to carry their dog, carrying a 50 lb dog is much easier than carrying a 70+ pound dog. Most of our police departments import dogs, which are generally smaller. Less weight = less food and more energy to move about. But yes...for those that don't know they think bigger is better. I've had my boy next to a 30" at the withers, 120 lb male and everyone around me kept telling him that one day he'll be that big. I kindly explained to them that my boy is a standard sized shepherd, then my boy kindly explained to that male that there wasn't going to be any dominating of him just because he's bigger.

It's also funny that in the United States our show dogs tend to be over the standard, where as the working dogs are within the standard. I guess everything is upside down in Australia!
martemchik is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:14 AM   #33 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 18,290
Default

You don't need to be obsessed with full bites for street work and PPD but my problem is more with the targeting and the decoy in the video offering the *end* of the sleeve, the dog is basically being trained to bite the wrist/hand which does not seem at all useful to me and I've always seen discouraged regardless of venue. Nikon doesn't naturally take huge full bites doing suit work. Some of it is just him, some of it is the targeting. Sometimes there's a lot more fighting going on. In SchH the helper might pause for half a sec and let the dog naturally "fill up" the bite whereas on the suit the decoy is being more realistic and just keeps struggling or fighting back and the dog has to deal with the grip he's got or make his own chance to fill up (you can see that on the barn video I posted where Nikon bites the back side of the armpit and has a really shallow/frontal bite because he's not used to a suit that stiff and tight but he works through it and gets a better grip).

Two decoys that have worked Nikon both told me that he can inflict real pain even with a somewhat shallow bite, it's almost as if he *likes* making pain more than having full control/trying to drag someone down like he could with a really full bite. I've seen what he can do even through the padded suit and it's not pretty.
__________________
Coke (All-American 7/7/06)
Nikon (GSD 9/7/08)
Indy (All-American 5/10/12)
Legend (GSD 10/22/13)
Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD)


Last edited by Liesje; 02-21-2013 at 11:18 AM.
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:16 AM   #34 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
onyx'girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SW, MI
Posts: 23,900
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
The whole bite thing is interesting...I watched a demonstration by my local police department and their dogs. They definitely didn't have full bites...dog after dog just bit the person (in full suit) on the arm with just the front of the mouth. Seemed to me like it was actually trained into them. Kind of bite hard enough to bring down, disarm, but not really go overboard and injure/break something.

As to the size thing...it's an interesting discussion. I'm not judging the fact that you think a working dog should be bigger...but I'd like to see the police department dogs in Australia. The reason the United States military has switched over to malanois these days it pretty much due to size...humans can walk much farther than dogs can, sometimes the soldier has to carry their dog, carrying a 50 lb dog is much easier than carrying a 70+ pound dog. Most of our police departments import dogs, which are generally smaller. Less weight = less food and more energy to move about. But yes...for those that don't know they think bigger is better. I've had my boy next to a 30" at the withers, 120 lb male and everyone around me kept telling him that one day he'll be that big. I kindly explained to them that my boy is a standard sized shepherd, then my boy kindly explained to that male that there wasn't going to be any dominating of him just because he's bigger.

It's also funny that in the United States our show dogs tend to be over the standard, where as the working dogs are within the standard. I guess everything is upside down in Australia!
Watch the KNPV training, they teach the dog to bite without using the legs on the decoy, no pulling/tugging but pushing into them instead. Bite is a full firm hold(target armpit or leg). The dogs are small(Mal/Dutch lines) They are powerful and fast. When they do the H&B it is from the decoys back, not in the face. They don't want big dogs, and think the GSD structure is too big to work with.
I like the way the KNPV trains, and when the dogs are titled, they are ready to hit the streets as LEO K9's. Can't say the same for an IPO dog.
__________________
Jane~
Kept by Onyx, Kacie and Karlo
onyx'girl is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:27 AM   #35 (permalink)
Administrator & Alpha Bitch of the Wild Bunch
 
Chris Wild's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Michigan, USA
Posts: 13,524
Default

On the bite thing, much of the focus on it is what it says about the character of the dog. Dog's working from the "wrong place" will often bite frontally and in a hectic manner. This shows weakness in that the dog is not fully committed to the bite but is rather biting in the same manner that what we often refer to as a "fear biter" would bite.. quick strike, frontal bite, ready to disengage and back off at any moment. Whereas a full, hard, calm bite shows full committment of the dog indicating confidence, full engagement and a desire to control and dominate the threat/opponent.

From a character standpoint, the later is definitely preferred, which is why there is a lot of focus on the type of bite in breed tests like SchH. (Going back to the breed's herding roots, a full calm bite is far less damaging to livestock than a frontal bite, so it is preferred from that standpoint as well.) Of course other things not related to the character of the dog can impact the bite, including bad training or poor bite presentations from the decoy.

While the desired bite isn't necessarily required from a get the job done standpoint, it is important from the standpoint of what is says about the dog. And even with regard to getting the job done, the dog who fully commits and is determined to subdue the bad guy is more likely to stick in the fight for the long haul than the dog who bites in a quick, tentative manner ready to disengage at any moment for his own preservation. If looking for a dog for real protection, I'd certainly want the former rather than the later.
__________________
Wildhaus Kennels
Chris Wild is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 11:27 AM   #36 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
martemchik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by onyx'girl View Post
Watch the KNPV training, they teach the dog to bite without using the legs on the decoy, no pulling/tugging but pushing into them instead. Bite is a full firm hold(target armpit or leg). The dogs are small(Mal/Dutch lines) They are powerful and fast. When they do the H&B it is from the decoys back, not in the face. They don't want big dogs, and think the GSD structure is too big to work with.
I like the way the KNPV trains, and when the dogs are titled, they are ready to hit the streets as LEO K9's. Can't say the same for an IPO dog.
I'll take a look into it. But I was just making an observation. I don't know if its right/wrong but I live in a large city and the police department has their own training program...so they get green dogs from Europe and then do the finishing work themselves. I'm assuming most have begun Schutzhund work but then get turned into LEO K9.

I just really noticed the difference between what I saw at a Schutzhund trial and what happened at that demonstration.
martemchik is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 12:00 PM   #37 (permalink)
Moderator
 
Liesje's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 18,290
Default

I've seen the same sort of thing. I think we have to remember that police dogs are dogs and their handlers are people. Police dogs are often the gold standard, which I think is fine, but there's a huge spectrum of quality and training among police dogs. Not every department has the money to buy the *best* dogs and invest in the *best* training. It's like my job in IT....yes I could get more work done faster if I had all the very best tools and resources available to me but I don't. However I'm still able to do a better than average job with the resources that are available and affordable to my employer.

Also, I think street biting is actually pretty rare. Most departments probably train dual purpose dogs because it's cheaper to train one dog to do two things than train two dogs to each do one thing. I'd bet a majority of the work is tracking, finding objects (guns or evidence shed when a suspect is running), detecting drugs, and being used as a deterrent (going out to make arrests and having the dog present to prevent the person from fleeing or causing trouble). The dogs probably do more bites in demos than they do actually on the street, just like it's rare for an officer to draw and fire a weapon (which is sort of how I see sending my dog to engage, like drawing and firing a weapon).
__________________
Coke (All-American 7/7/06)
Nikon (GSD 9/7/08)
Indy (All-American 5/10/12)
Legend (GSD 10/22/13)
Rainbow Bridge Kenya (GSD)


Last edited by Liesje; 02-21-2013 at 12:04 PM.
Liesje is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-21-2013, 12:10 PM   #38 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
martemchik's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,880
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Also, I think street biting is actually pretty rare. Most departments probably train dual purpose dogs because it's cheaper to train one dog to do two things than train two dogs to each do one thing. I'd bet a majority of the work is tracking, finding objects (guns or evidence shed when a suspect is running), detecting drugs, and being used as a deterrent (going out to make arrests and having the dog present to prevent the person from fleeing or causing trouble). The dogs probably do more bites in demos than they do actually on the street, just like it's rare for an officer to draw and fire a weapon (which is sort of how I see sending my dog to engage, like drawing and firing a weapon).
You are correct. Both dogs demonstrated their drug sniffing and tracking skills as well that day. A bite was just something fun for them to show the crowd. The funniest thing to me was that the decoy put on a full protective suit (helmet and everything) and it was clear that those dogs were only going to bite the arm.
martemchik is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2013, 02:08 PM   #39 (permalink)
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Toronto Ontario
Posts: 1,841
Default

I think the op is just working with bad trainers, you can't see how good the dog could be maybe? also the dog is all tired and about to pass out and so chubby lol

The first video with liesj seems like a nice trainer/decoy with a nice dog JMHO
pets4life is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-05-2013, 04:24 PM   #40 (permalink)
Crowned Member
 
cliffson1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 4,274
Default

Any dog that will only bite the arm is more of sport dog than police dog....certified police dogs have to do full body encounters during parts of their training. If the decoy runs with the arms pulled in front while running, a decent police dog will engage first body part they come to. Least I think they will.
cliffson1 is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the German Shepherd Dog Forums forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:39 AM.



Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.3.2
PetGuide.com
Basset.net DobermanTalk.com GoldenRetrieverForum.com OurBeagleWorld.com
BoxerForums.com DogForums.com GoPitbull.com PoodleForum.com
BulldogBreeds.com FishForums.com HavaneseForum.com SpoiledMaltese.com
CatForum.com GermanShepherds.com Labradoodle-dogs.net YorkieForum.com
Chihuahua-People.com RetrieverBreeds.com