Learning Theory Question

[amjrchamberlain]

Ready for this?

Is it possible for a dog to become classically conditioned to associate the dog show ring with negative emotions (such as stress) and to perform substandardly because of it?

For example - if a dog starts out its career happily going into the ring and performing, but mid-way experiences some stressful event (that the human partner may not even be aware of), is it possible for the dog to associate the entering of the ring with that stress and to not respond to handler commands that it will respond to outside the ring (but near it - or anywhere else for that matter)?

I'm thinking yes. I'm thinking this has happened with one of my dogs and am thinking that through counter conditioning the dog to the ring I can get him to perform in the ring well again.

It is not a lack of not knowing the exercises. He has trained to some of the CDX exercises nicely but now that we are out of Rally - with his RE done - we are trialing for his CD and he is giving clear stress signals EVERY time we enter the ring. Even at matches where there is no handler stress.

Stress signals being - facial bunching under the eyes, flews drawn back, panting heavily, blank expression, etc.

Thanks for your input!

[BlackPuppy]

Yes.

Do you have the opportunity to train in a ring? I would start by doing happy stuff in a ring. Then a ring with a lot of people around it. Then a ring with a "judge" in it. This is just fun stuff. Not training. Paying with toys, feeding treats, etc. Don't do any trialing.

Brings to mind the Sea Biscuit book. I don't remember how the movie portrayed the part in the beginning where the horse was just fed up with racing and wanted to run on his own terms.

[JKlatsky]

Yes.

Although I experience it in reverse. Things my dog will do beautifully at training and trial I cannot get at home! Like walk nicely on a leash, sit politely and ignore distractions, come when I call, not jump on people...::sigh::

Seriously though. I Agree with Carole. Sort of like when dogs know they are going to the vet. You need to build them back up again and make the situation fun.

[Kayos and Havoc]

This has happened to me too. It is hard to fix but it is possible. I was working on it with Kayos and was making progress but retired her due to her hips. Lots of good things in the ring at fun matches will really help.

But the bottom line too is how are you feeling in the ring? I got stressed too and I had to work harder on me than on the dog. If you are stressing cause the dog is stressing you have a cyclo going that you will hvae to break.

[Samba]

It takes a lot to prepare a dog to get happily through the stress of ring performance. I think it is very common for the dogs to shut down. They know they are being looked at. Their owner has gone wierd on them too!

In Rally there is often talking to the dog also. That goes away for the now interminable heeling sessions in Novice.

If you can positively condition the dog to things you can use in the ring it can help. Also, there is the work of getting the dog used to so much silence. There are things to do to help with that also.

The dogs learn the exercises but getting that "ring ready" state and keeping it can take some work.

[amjrchamberlain]

Thanks for your input everyone.

I used to stress alot in the ring - I couldn't even eat breakfast on show days because my stomach would be so "knotted". I would choke down water. But now I don't stress like that. I actually can eat now! LOL Sure, I get the jitters...but I'm generally ok until I see that blank look.

Samba - Yep...Rally got me into being a chatterbox with them. I train with silence off and on so they can experience it, but add silence to their stress in the ring and I think that is part of what is "getting" us. Good thing you can help me with it! LOL Hmmm...when can we all get together to train...LOL

[IliamnasQuest]

One of the main problems in switching from rally to regular obedience is that the dog is now expected to do long sections of heeling with ZERO verbal input from their humans. Most people in rally tend to talk too much to their dogs, and that becomes part of the cue for the behavior. Then you finish the RE and think "wow, I'm ready for the novice ring" and the dog shuts down about five steps in and acts like they've never heard the commands before. This is purely a training problem ... in the dog's mind, YOU have changed and the dog is now confused since he's not getting the feedback you conditioned him to receive.

We also tend to use a lot of "keep going" indicators in practice ... some chatter designed to let the dog know when he's doing right. But in all honesty we should be teaching our dogs that they're right WHEN WE'RE QUIET and then stop/redirect/correct if they do the wrong thing. This way the dog remains happy during long stretches of heeling because they're constantly being told they're right (through the silence and your smile).

So how do I try to get through this catch-22? I start off with quite a bit of verbal encouragement, paired with rewards and smiles. But I back off of the verbal as quickly as I can, praising and rewarding for longer bits of silent training. I keep the smile (THAT'S allowed!) but the words stop. If I am heeling and the dog loses focus, I immediately break out of the heeling with a verbal "oops, not right!", back up and clap my hands and bring them back into place and start over. No rewards/treats unless the behavior remains correct, but no huge punishments for not staying in the exercise properly.

It takes time to re-program a dog out of the "constant chatter" mode. It has nothing to do with how well a dog understands the mechanics of each exercise - it has to do with the dog's confusion when the praise and encouragement stop. In the dog's mind, they're right when they hear the praise .. and wrong when they don't. That has to be turned around.

Fun Matches are good times to practice if you can find some. Or, if you really want to show, enter rally some more and just cut back on the chatter ... do the same in practice, gradually less and less verbal and lots of reward for continual work in silence. If you want a dog that is going to be successful in regular obedience in CDX work and maybe UD too, it's best to hold off putting him in CD classes until you work through this. Might as well try to get the good scores from the beginning! I always aim for a 195 minimum in regular obedience. Sometimes we don't make it, sometimes we do better.

Good luck, and hope you work through this! My next dog (if there is a next dog) will be trained using much more silence even for the rally exercises, and taught from day one that the longer the silence, the bigger the party!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Caledon]

Good points. You offer good advice!

Our instructor is encouraging those who want to do a CD to enter Rally-O first, just to get the handlers/dogs accustomed to the ring.

Like your points about not talking too much in Rally-O.