Getting rid of the rock back

[Jason L]

Right now Obie has a pretty pronounced rock back sit. The only time he sits correctly is when he does a "front" and that's only because of where I'm holding my treat (pressed against my stomach). But if he is sitting out of heeling, he rocks back big time. He would be pretty good position during the heeling part (shoulder in line with my leg) but when we come to stop it's like "wait, where did my dog go?"

We've tried folding with his back legs manually but he has a very strong oppositional reflex. As soon as he feels someone trying to touch him, he squirms out or starts resisting big time.

Does anyone have experience fixing the sit without "pushing" them into position? Thanks.

[middleofnowhere]

You might try what they recommend for a slouchy sit - heeling against a wall. Otherwise I think you might be positioning your reward too far back. If you start rewarding from the right hand, it will bring him forward. (Hold the treat in your right hand positioned just to the right of your left side - sort of like where it would be if you crossed your arms loosely only a bit lower.) See what that does for you.

[IliamnasQuest]

The rock-back sit can be very difficult to fix once established. I learned the hard way with my first shepherd, a big male named Dawson. He learned "sit" as the rock-back and then in competition he was often out of position because of it. We had a tough time on the fronts, because when he sat he would be almost too far away (which right now you're not seeing because you're holding a treat there, but when your dog gets stressed in competition he may very well revert to the rock-back as that's his default sitting behavior).

So what I would recommend is to re-teach the sit using a different command - "park it" or something like that. I teach the sit to my young dogs by using a treat to control the front end (holding the treat in front of the mouth, letting them nibble or lick) and very gently running my hand down over the back, rump and the curve of the hind legs. I don't push, for the very reason you mention of the oppositional reflex, but the gentle stroking motion seems to encourage the dog to move the hind end forward and sit. As soon as the hind legs move forward and the butt hits the ground, I mark the behavior and reward with the treat - making sure that I keep the treat in the right position to encourage the dog to stay in a sit.

Now, this may not work with your dog, although if you did it consistently and persistently (ignoring him - simply pausing - anytime he squirms or gets silly when touched) I think you could work through his reaction to the touching.

Another way to help with the sitting during heeling - and this one may be easier for you overall, although it may not be as consistent - is to teach your dog to touch the palm of your hand on command. A simple "touch" is a good enough verbal cue. Practice it separately from the sit or any other behavior until he will physically move toward the palm of your hand when you hold it out and say "touch".

Then when you're heeling, and you want to stop, you'll put your left hand out to your side, palm DOWN, over his head so he has to rear up to reach it with his nose. Slow down a step or two in preparation for the halt, and just when you halt tell him "touch!" and have him rear up to touch your palm - and while he's in the air, say "sit!" and he should sink down into a sit at your side in proper position (if your hand was in proper position).

The key to this is to do is consistently - meaning ALL the time for quite a long time so your dog re-learns his position. If he's really established the rock-back sit, it's going to take some time to fix that - months, maybe. You should see an improvement pretty quickly, but always keep in mind that when a dog is under stress, they will more than likely revert to a previously learned behavior unless a new behavior has been worked to the point where it completely obscured the previous behavior. And that takes time.

The "rear up and touch the palm" trick is really great for getting proper sits (helps fix crooked sits, too) but it's also great for keeping a dog up into heel position when they tend to lag, or tend to swing the rump out, etc. If you position your hand properly, up over the head, high enough so the dog has to rear up some to touch it but not too high, you can actually use this while heeling to help keep your dog's body in proper position. Just add in a "touch" every few steps and the dog will work harder to maintain position. And most dogs LIKE the jump up and touch game. I've also found that most dogs don't develop a jumping problem with this, even though it seems as though they might. I think that's because it's controlled, and the only time you request a touch is when your hand is out there (NOT a normal position for your hand during heeling, so it's a good visual cue) and the only time you reward (praise/treat/whatever) the rearing up behavior is when you've cued it. So there's not much incentive for a dog to be jumping into the air unless you want him to.

Also, the positioning of your hand when giving rewards during heeling or heel/sit is vitally important. When you're giving a treat or luring a sit during heeling (not treating for the touch, just normal reward for heeling or sitting), try keeping your arm against your body, fingers pointed down and at the exact position his nose SHOULD be if he were in proper position. Never bring the treat to him if he's not in proper position - it's his responsibility to have his nose where it should be, and where the treat will be!

Melanie and the gang in Alaska

[Jason L]

Melanie, thanks so much! You gave me a lot of stuff there to work on. I took Obie to his private lesson last week with a trainer who competes regularly and the first thing she asked me was if I want a 170 pt dog or a 190. I said 190. She said then we have a lot of work ahead of us, starting with his sit. I now see she was not kidding LOL.

[Castlemaid]

Melanie, that was awesome! Got me all fired up to try and get Gryff started out this way.

[Jason L]

First day of reteaching Obie how to sit:

Boy, he is a squirmy one! I can't go anywhere near his back legs without him jumping out. The plus side is when we are done with all this I think he is going to have a magnificent kick back stand LOL. We spent about 10 minutes training this morning. I suspect he was getting a little frustrated (that or he was thoroughly confused) because by the end of the session he has pretty much stopped sitting altogether! So I may have de-taught him the sit - just as well ... the rock back has to go somehow

Touch palm is going well since he knows touch stick already.

[IliamnasQuest]

Dogs who are squirmy can be difficult to work with. My Tazer is a squirmy dog and I basically desensitized her to touch somewhat. Not really training, just using my hands on her (massaging, scratching, moving legs, etc.) frequently whether she wanted it or not, talking to her in a low quiet voice, etc. Now she accepts touching and actually tends to be LESS wiggly if I have a hand on her.

The touch game may work best with Obie, instead of the re-training of the sit. I think if I had a dog like you're describing, I might work primarily on the touch game and then do some desensitizing to touch like I described above, and see if you can get him to learn that touch is good and nice and if he relaxes and doesn't squirm it's even better. It also helps to mark/reward any non-squirmy behavior when you're touching him. If he will settle enough to pay attention to the touching, then it's easier to manipulate him if you need to. And in all honesty, I've had better results using SOME hands-on training (helping position them) than trying to shape behaviors using shaping or luring only.

Good luck on this, it does take time but then you've got a lifetime with your dog! You'll be SO glad you took the time to teach him properly. I remember how frustrated I was with Dawson at times, with that rock-back sit. But I also took Dawson from Novice A to his Utility Dog title, so we got through it reasonably well.

You know, my little short-backed chows can do a rock-back sit and it doesn't really matter that much .. our darn GSDs are so long that it really makes things more difficult! *L*

Melanie and the gang in Alaska