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Thread: Dirty in the blind! Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
08-29-2014 02:23 PM
ayoitzrimz Forgot to mention: I know some handlers need help, I know I did at the beginning. Lots of helpers help out newbies with the above methods. I personally prefer seeing a second experienced handler hold the long line / remote and issue corrections if necessary and if the handler needs help with timing.
08-29-2014 11:30 AM
ayoitzrimz
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorDog View Post
This it kills me hearing that a "strong" dog is the one taking dirty bites on a new helper. I just don't understand.

If the dog isn't adjusting his behavior by himself (without being physically pulled into another position by a long line) then how are they actually learning to make the decision on their own?

To me, guarding is guarding is guarding. Just like sit is sit is sit. If the dog is clean sometimes and not others, the only excuse is that there is a lack of clarity at some point in the training. Don't touch the helper means don't touch the helper, and if that's not getting through with a correction one or two times, then the guarding probably wasn't ready for the dog being sent in on its own in the first place. A correction is supposed to cause a change in behavior, right? I see people sending their dogs in on long lines for years and checking them to keep them clean...So if if takes week, months, or years, then how is that an effective correction or training method?
The answer is timing, and reading the dog IMO. It takes weeks, months, or years because the timing is off and the dog doesn't have a clear understanding of what behavior caused the correction. Correcting prematurely as well, anticipating the dog will be dirty etc when he wasn't going to. Ideally the correction comes when the dog is trying to be dirty but didn't get the bite yet (self satisfying). Teaching the dog to guard a little further away gives more time between the intention and the bite. A lot of dogs guard way too close, there's no need to guard like a dobe
08-29-2014 11:28 AM
ayoitzrimz +1 for GatorDog and Packen. I try to avoid helper corrections and such, helper yelling "sit" at the dog as he comes in etc.

OB and control comes from the handler, not the helper. The helper is there to be an adversary not to give corrections. JMO. I like the control to come from the handler, not the helper. It leads to conflict IMO and only works on that one specific helper who the dog respects.

Ideally, the dog will respect no helper but will respect the handle. He maintains clean guarding because of the consequences of being dirty that will come from the handler (or "god" depending on the training plan, I'm ok with that as well if done right just need to avoid the dog understanding that "god" is only watching when the e-collar is on hehe). That carries over to other helpers and new fields, barring nerve issues
08-29-2014 06:32 AM
GatorDog
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packen View Post
Key is to not show any physical reaction (helper or handler or person pushing button when dirty), let god to the talking. Then helper can proof him by slowly moving sleeve up to dog, when dog starts to move back with the sleeve, means he gets it.

Most people use pressure from helper, works with that particular helper but bring a new helper in picture and same dirtiness will happen (dogs associate and he will associate with that ONE helper to stay clean and the new guy will be fair game), people then think dog is badass
This it kills me hearing that a "strong" dog is the one taking dirty bites on a new helper. I just don't understand.

If the dog isn't adjusting his behavior by himself (without being physically pulled into another position by a long line) then how are they actually learning to make the decision on their own?

To me, guarding is guarding is guarding. Just like sit is sit is sit. If the dog is clean sometimes and not others, the only excuse is that there is a lack of clarity at some point in the training. Don't touch the helper means don't touch the helper, and if that's not getting through with a correction one or two times, then the guarding probably wasn't ready for the dog being sent in on its own in the first place. A correction is supposed to cause a change in behavior, right? I see people sending their dogs in on long lines for years and checking them to keep them clean...So if if takes week, months, or years, then how is that an effective correction or training method?
08-29-2014 01:14 AM
szariksdad I don't know it seems like the helper could do a couple of things himself to prevent this, when I have dogs coming in I usually like to keep my stick in front of the sleeve to protect it and knock at the dog if he is dirty. A really hard dog that I know who was dirty, the one way they got him clean was with both e-collar and prong. The e-collar was hit 3 times on stim and he was corrected 3 times with a no using the prong, you may want to try that.
08-29-2014 12:18 AM
Packen Key is to not show any physical reaction (helper or handler or person pushing button when dirty), let god to the talking. Then helper can proof him by slowly moving sleeve up to dog, when dog starts to move back with the sleeve, means he gets it.

Most people use pressure from helper, works with that particular helper but bring a new helper in picture and same dirtiness will happen (dogs associate and he will associate with that ONE helper to stay clean and the new guy will be fair game), people then think dog is badass
08-28-2014 05:06 PM
onyx'girl
Quote:
Originally Posted by CSpivey08 View Post
Checking him hasn't worked, he will still go in dirty.
We have been checking him for months, he doesn't care. If he gets away with it once he will continue on.

My next question is, how did you condition your dog to the e-collar? I have an e-collar but have not had a need for it with this dog until now. I don't want him to be dependent on the collar to be clean.
When I trained my dog to an ecollar it was well before we actually used it in the protection phase. We trained directionals/go to place and set up a strong foundation to be sure he understood.
I agree with not doing it in the blind, as some dogs will go into avoidance if they are corrected in the blind.
And also agree with having the helper or someone else holding the remote for this, especially if the handler is a distance away or out of view when the dog reaches the helper. Timing is everything.
08-28-2014 04:47 PM
martemchik I mean, not judging...but was it a hard enough check?

I know a prong will amp up most dogs...but a good enough correction with one will still get it through to them and if they have enough drive, they'll forget about it and keep going.

I think my only issue with the ecollar in this situation is that it doesn't provide a physical correction to actually bring the dog into the correct position...like a prong check can do. An ecollar can correct the dog, and maybe the dog then moves back from the helper, but it might not "teach" the dog that he should just give him space all the time.

I've also seen a lot of problems with dogs who are taught thing with an ecollar...and that ecollar comes off. The being an A-hole thing is usually one of the things that you see the dog get back the moment they realize the ecollar isn't there anymore. Failed outs are another thing I have seen when a dog is taught to out with just a correction.
08-28-2014 04:39 PM
GatorDog I make it crystal clear that any touching of the helper at all is not acceptable (using electric) before I ever send my dog into the blind. I find the once the dogs know that they are responsible for maintaining distance to.svoid the correction, slowing to collect themselves in the guarding comes second nature.
08-28-2014 04:32 PM
mycobraracr I've used a lot of the other methods mentioned. I also have had the handler stand with their back to the corner of the blind, as the dog rounds the corner, the handler turns as well so handler is facing helper with dog. I have found making the dog go slightly wider around the blind helps. Plus with the handler there, they can give a correction if needed. I have faded out the handler by placing an object there and so on. I have found a lot of dogs are clean when getting sent in straight, but get dirty when rounding the corner. So giving them a little more time to "think" about it seems to work for me.

A little late now, but I also like to teach my B&H with a little extra distance. Once the leash comes off the dog always closes the gap.
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