|Today 11:44 AM|
Lets not kid ourselves and assume that the people breeding untitled dogs have had decades of experience and tons of progeny that have had success in either real working venues or Schutzhund or whatever other venue people have thought up these days. Most...are the terrible BYBs we talk about. Without a lot more knowledge or information about a breeder, a famous/known kennel name, the assumption should always be that these people are BYB and just throwing dogs together without wanting to take the time to train or title because they know they don't have to and they will sell the puppies anyways.
In regards to money spent...most people don't do Schutzhund in order to get a title and be "allowed" to breed their dog. To most of us, this is after all OUR hobby. We enjoy it just as much if not more than the dog does. So the cost, is just a cost of me enjoying my time and learning something about my dog. Which is something that is forgotten about training and trialing...the handler/trainer gets to learn about the dog, gets to find out its strengths and weaknesses. So it's less about the letters after the dogs name, and more about the knowledge you hope that breeder has gained about the dog in order to make a better pairing decision in the future.
|Today 11:22 AM|
|Liesje||Carmen, the difference is many breeders/bybs doing this have never *participated* in said venues of sport or work. Obviously someone that has trained and titled 35 SchH dogs over a period of as many years is going to get a lot more cred from me than someone who has never done SchH and is just buying titled dogs to breed. It goes both ways for me, experience and titles. That is what I said in my original post. When I wanted a SchH dog, I went to a breeder that was breeding titled dogs (mostly titled themselves) AND currently training and titling dogs. SchH is a lifestyle for them, not just letters on a paper or stud contract. The dog I bought was exactly what I asked for, easy to train in SchH. I no longer own him but he is multiple times SchH3, two of those earned at national competitions. But just because a dog is good for SchH does not mean he is going to be just as good at any other sport, or the traits that we desire for SchH are going to carry over. That goes for any activity. My dog is V rated and U-CH but I would never tell a prospective puppy buyer, "yeah his puppies would do great in the AKC conformation ring!" When people make statements without having any real knowledge or experience in the venue it feels somewhat disrespectful to people who put as much time an energy in that venue as others do in SchH. I will not debate which ones are "better" or more important for the breed (FWIW I still and will always believe SchH is the breed test), but from a buyer or "end user" point of view, it's not helpful to make assumptions that aren't true.|
|Today 11:07 AM|
not a bad argument Liesje , one comment on this " don't buy it when breeders title a dog in *one* thing and think they can advertise their dogs as prospects for half a dozen other sports they've never tried"
Response would be , the breeder also gathers feed-back from all the dogs that they produced that are out there in the big world. That becomes a basis for confidently saying what the potentials may be .
This is especially true for working dogs .
The breeder can't personally go out there and participate in the work . The feed-back can be as sharp as a knife cut.
Provide dogs that don't evaluate , don't perform and the opportunity to provide is slammed shut . The reputation follows through the network. Provide dogs of quality , and they are sought after , reputation follows throughout the network.
My bone to pick is new breeders with extravagant , hyperbolic advertising when they don't know , have not the experience , have not the record for themselves producing such animals.
The same goes for some breeders, topic of recent other threads , who breed niche market dogs, colour , DDR , or any other category -- don't work the dogs, don't title the dogs , have no dogs going out to work - in other words no stress-test testing of a claim (collapses on first load) and yet say dogs can be anything including specialized fields of work .
|Today 10:47 AM|
|Liesje||My feeling is...put your money where your mouth is. Titled, untitled, I don't care, I am not the breed police. But if someone tells me they want to get working line puppy specifically FOR IPO, then I would never understand WHY they aren't looking at breeders who breed titled dogs and are out there training and titling themselves. Same thing for any other sport or activity. It cracks me up when people advertise their litters as potential flyball dogs because they have a dog that would chase a tennis ball over the cliff (I'm not just talking GSDs here, but my feelings are the same regardless of breed or cross). Um, no, try actually DOING flyball for a few years and then tell me you know what dogs are going to be good and win. If someone wants a balanced pet that can settle in the house and interact with other people and other dogs....why go to breeders that have to kennel or crate-and-rotate dogs to keep themselves sane? This breed is so crazy popular, you can get what you want in practically any color, size, gender, and coat type if you just spend more than a few minutes actually looking. I don't buy it when breeders title a dog in *one* thing and think they can advertise their dogs as prospects for half a dozen other sports they've never tried. I mean, my own dog HAS titled in like 12 different things and I STILL don't consider him a top prospect at most of those. His best sport/working trait is absolutely tracking and scent work, which happens to be the one aspect of training that I enjoy the very least! (I like flyball, agility, and the obedience part of IPO).|
|Yesterday 11:48 PM|
And when I came home from deployment I totaled our Jeep and there was no money left to replace it. It's one of the reason why she quit with IPO. The money and time put into it, is not worth it. She bred two untitled dogs and the results are in the process of proving themselves in RH.
It's not like she doesn't want to do it. But like Lee said, not everyone has the means to do it. She's spent my entire deployment pay. That is a lot of money and it wasn't enough to title a dog. For that money she could have imported two titled dogs and we would have money left over.
|Yesterday 02:44 PM|
Happy Thanksgiving everyone. Maybe people should step back and reflect a bit and leave the personal stuff out of the posts.
|Yesterday 02:11 PM|
You guys take these things so personally as if we talk about your breeding program when we're answering to a general question. I could care less why you do or don't title your dogs, at the end of the day, I won't buy a puppy from a sire or a dam I haven't watched work anyways. The theoretical discussion should focus on the fact that the MAJORITY of breeders who breed untitled dogs are doing so without any prior titling experience and is a major indicator of BYB. If I see a pedigree with no titles for 2-3 generations, I'll assume BYB and I would not recommend a breeder like that. I'd also never recommend a breeder I don't personally know or have seen at least a few dogs worked out of that kennel. I'm also in the huge minority that does have access to seeing dogs get worked and understand what I'm seeing when I see a dog work...the majority of puppy buyers have no idea what they're looking for and even if they can watch a dog get worked, it means absolutely nothing to them.
I love how some of you love to call others out for "insults" when you do the same. Calling someone out for not being old enough to have spent enough time in the sport, is getting personal, and completely uncalled for. So when you do that, I'll call you out for something that I don't agree with, and really don't care how it makes you feel.
Breed whatever you want, whenever you want, it doesn't affect me or my dogs in any way. If one of those dogs ever makes it's way to my club, I'll give it a good, unbiased, assessment, but it will probably never happen so I couldn't care less about what your breeding decisions are.
Also...I'm "wearing out" a $70,000 BMW driving back and forth to training, so do I win?
|Yesterday 01:58 PM|
IPO isn't that big at all here, as in I'd guess over half the breeders arn't breeding titled dogs.
Vader's parents are not titled, but there is titles in the line mostly from when they were imported, and a majority of the dogs from the breeder end up as police service dogs and that anyway, so I more went with the breeders rep from people I know than any kind of titles.
|Yesterday 12:03 PM|
I agree that good clubs and helperwork is far and few between. And some breeders have families(or dogs they can't leave for whole days at a time), they can't just up and go train several hours away.
Those that have clubs/helpers within an hour(s) drive should count themselves blessed(as well as trials that are happening spring and fall without having to get a hotel room, go for a whole weekend)
Though, personally, I'd only buy a pup from an untitled dog if I knew the breeder was knowledgeable of the lines they were breeding and have produced well in the past, they also do train and represent....not a breeder just breeding to breed(or using a well known stud to market their pups).
|Yesterday 11:31 AM|
I spent over 12 years driving 600-800 miles a week to train. I wore out a $40,000 truck and a $50,000 truck doing it. I spent every waking moment that I was not working training or going to training....and more than every available dollar! I was nearly killed in a car wreck, am severely compromised and cannot physically handle that schedule - or a big strong male dog....I fall down. Flat. Alot. Not an "excuse" - a fact. I just gave away the best male I ever bred - two of them actually - so that they could be titled. Because I personally am unable to do the work. I have two females out on co-owns because of the lack of a helper that I can get to. I am ALWAYS looking for training opportunities...I have not just "quit" because I did it for 15 years.....I would love to be able to move somewhere that there was good training available - but that is not just done with a snap of the fingers either. Jobs, mortgages, commitments that keep someone in the same place....
I am not condoning breeders who breed generation after generation of untitled dogs either. I am saying that there are many reasons that someone may choose to breed an untitled dog and that the big picture is what counts. What I find worse is "breeders" who just go out and buy dogs that are titled, breed litter after litter, never or only rarely keeping or titling any of those themselves.
My point about the geography and availability of clubs, good helpers, and the drama and nonsense in clubs is indisputable. I know people who are 5 or 6 hours from a club...where it is impossible to go train - what they should starve to death because it would be a choice of buying food or gas to go train every week? I knew someone who was in that position at one point - she could not afford to even buy a $5 lunch at a trial....she slept in her truck at a trial.
If you can afford to do this and you are young and healthy and strong enough and have a good helper - then count your blessings, and be a bit more understanding of the big picture and of other people's situations.
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