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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-07-2014 11:37 PM
VTGirlT
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauren43 View Post
On the other hand. Some dogs with no history of abuse will cower from a raised object. There is genetic fearfulness. We as humans seem to always want to assume the worst and sometimes that is simply not the case.

And I def think dogs miss their owners. They can't rationalize. They don't know why you left or if you'll ever be back but some dogs will long for their owners. And how long that longing goes on for is totally dog dependent..some will be over you in a day some could take weeks, months, years or never. I know my Avery would watch out the window when I left him at my parents, just waiting for my return.

This is a great post!



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I agree, I think Zelda fear aggression to strangers is combination of genetics and probably not proper socialization when she was a baby. But everyone always assumes that she was abused or hut by a stranger or something. I'm like, nah i really dont think so. The lady i got her from seemed to care she was just ignorant.

Exactly, every dog is an individual. Our beagle lives for her food. She is clock work when it comes to food. I dont think she would care if i left and never came back lol Whereas Zelda usually waits for me- she would care.
07-07-2014 10:22 PM
lauren43
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTGirlT View Post
They have a memory. But they live in the moment as in, they aren't like most of us humans, we live in the past and future mostly i think. Dogs don't live in the future at all, they may remember the past and can have behavioral problems because of it sometimes. But they don't dwell on it. Example, our beagle dog is scared of any object lifted near her, shoe, pencil, remote,etc. probably because she remembers objects were used to abuse her in her previous home. (She came from an abusive man, and the lady took her in and neglected her, left her in her crate for 2 weeks, she had pee stain all the way up her legs, she came into the animal hospital on charges and we adopted her through the shelter in the end) BUT our beagle doesn't dwell on the fact she was abused or spent 2 weeks in a .

On the other hand. Some dogs with no history of abuse will cower from a raised object. There is genetic fearfulness. We as humans seem to always want to assume the worst and sometimes that is simply not the case.

And I def think dogs miss their owners. They can't rationalize. They don't know why you left or if you'll ever be back but some dogs will long for their owners. And how long that longing goes on for is totally dog dependent..some will be over you in a day some could take weeks, months, years or never. I know my Avery would watch out the window when I left him at my parents, just waiting for my return.

This is a great post!



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07-07-2014 09:48 PM
Jax08 She's looking up the actual paper for me when she gets time. She can access it thru Cornell.
07-07-2014 09:24 PM
lalachka
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jax08 View Post
Skinner - operant conditioning. Not Pavlov. Look up Bob Bailey. It was in a paper he wrote.

Thank you so much. I missed this post somehow
07-07-2014 09:02 PM
VTGirlT How about all those videos where the soldier comes back or the college kid comes back home, etc. and the dog goes ballistic in excitement? They remembered the person.

They have a memory. But they live in the moment as in, they aren't like most of us humans, we live in the past and future mostly i think. Dogs don't live in the future at all, they may remember the past and can have behavioral problems because of it sometimes. But they don't dwell on it. Example, our beagle dog is scared of any object lifted near her, shoe, pencil, remote,etc. probably because she remembers objects were used to abuse her in her previous home. (She came from an abusive man, and the lady took her in and neglected her, left her in her crate for 2 weeks, she had pee stain all the way up her legs, she came into the animal hospital on charges and we adopted her through the shelter in the end) BUT our beagle doesn't dwell on the fact she was abused or spent 2 weeks in a crate.

Kind of like how I would always want to walk the dog at the shelter before it got euthanized and spend time with it. They live in the moment, they don't know how long they are supposed to live, the average age range for the breed, sometimes their bodies let them know and they go away to die, but they don't dwell on the fact that they are 16 when their breed age expectancy is 8-10 years, so they could die any day now and should say goodbye to their favorite people just in case. The dog had a lot of fun and didn't know it was coming. They aren't dwelling on the fact they live in a shelter, they are just over stressed with the sounds of other stressed dogs, the lack of human companionship, and confusion why are they are in new place and smells, and where their owner is. But they aren't "Oh woe is me, i'm in a cell and for who knows how long!" And when they get adopted, they arent like, "Oh i was in the cell for half a year! I'm going to dwell on it." They may remember the shelter and the smells if they go back though, i am positive it doesn't process through their brain they were there, unless something similar like an animal hospital comes up, maybe then-similar stressed out animal smells, cages, could have the same cleaning product,etc.

Thats my bitter-sweet experience after working with shelter dogs. I always try and live like them. I think my life would be a lot happier if i lived in the moment.

They live in the moment, have emotions, remember things/people/places, but don't dwell in the past or think of the future-they live in the moment.
07-07-2014 08:44 PM
Jax08 Skinner - operant conditioning. Not Pavlov. Look up Bob Bailey. It was in a paper he wrote.
07-07-2014 11:48 AM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
Selzer, I love your posts))))) there are so many gems in the above. Lack of offerings and stuff)))))

Anyway, this is why I asked. Trainers say you have to mark within a few seconds, you can't scold if you come home to a mess and so on. So that made me think that this means that dogs don't remember past a few mins.

So then another question. I argue with my friend about this all the time and now I see I might be wrong. Her dog destroys the apartment. She says that he knows he messed up because he looks guilty when she gets home. Of course, I say what I read. He reads off her body language. She says that sometimes she doesn't know he made a mess and he still looks guilty. I still say she's giving off some vibes or he knows by now that she always comes home mad.

What's the truth? Do they remember and act guilty when the owner shows up?
Dogs remember stuff. But in order to mark a positive or a negative to the right thing in the dog's brain, you got to get to it before there are other things in between.

For example: there is a fresh offering in the front room that you find when you enter your living room, "Fido!" you call. And Fido comes in and sees you, and you immediately read him the riot act about the poop. Does Fido get it that you are angry about the poop, or does Fido figure you are angry that he came when you called? Dogs are very intelligent. They will learn not to come when they are called quite fast. They will also learn to look guilty when people come home.

That guilty look is usually an indication that you over-react when you come home and find things amiss. The thing is, it is always our fault. If we give the dog the run of the house, and the dog is not ready for the run of the house, and in his panic, or boredom, he scratches or chews on the couch or claws the drapes so they fall, it is our own fault that we left the dog in an unsafe manner.

Eventually, we want to get to the point where the dog will have the run of the house, but especially for puppies, it is a very dangerous thing to do. Puppies will eat anything, stuff you would never consider, bitter stuff. And they get to chewing, and they ingest stuff. Sometimes it is a blessing that the dog only broke your invaluable item. Some dogs aren't so fortunate.
Yelling at the dog when you come home and find what the dog did today, really only increases the anxiety that the dog has about your leaving or coming.

There will be people that say, their dog knows... It only acts guilty when... They have never over-reacted... Well, the thing is, dogs can sense cancer in us before diagnostic testing can. Do we really think that they cannot sense our irritation, frustration, disappointment, even if we are not jumping up and down and yelling? Some dogs will get blamed for the bad thing because their owners come home, find a problem and the guilty one is the one that looks guilty -- she may just be the one that is the most in tune with her owner, and the one that is the most effected by his reactions.
07-07-2014 11:43 AM
KaiserandStella
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
Or they have some totally different scheme that they function on. Something so different from is that we can't even describe it.
This may be the case.

From my own observations, I don't think that they forget. On one hand you see dogs that are very adaptive and move on very easily. Not caring about suddenly living with someone new in the way that a human would care. Preferring to go where the getting is good (opportunistic) or sometimes just wherever the wind takes them. On the other hand there are dogs showing some sense of loyalty, a deep bond, and signs of missing their humans. hmm who knows.
07-07-2014 11:30 AM
Jax08
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
Yeah that's where I was getting at. Who came up with this and what was the experiments that led to it. I'd be so interested to know
I'm checking on it. As soon as she responds I'll let you know.
07-07-2014 11:24 AM
lalachka
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nikitta View Post
Then what about those dogs that will sit and wait for their owners? There was a movie that was a true story about an akita that went to the train station for years waiting for his owner to come home until the dog died. Or the stories about dogs who lay on their dead owners graves for years? And some dogs that are taken away from their owners and quit eating? I know of a case where this family gave their GSD to the Humane Society and the dog quit eating and was dead in 2 weeks.

Yep, it was things like this that I mentioned that makes me doubt they don't live in the moment as much as we think. Or they have some totally different scheme that they function on. Something so different from is that we can't even describe it.
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