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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-10-2014 12:23 AM
CarolinaRose
Quote:
Originally Posted by Betty View Post
Look how the attitude to dog bites have changed just in my lifetime. When I was a kid it was not big deal normally, and the first question that was asked was what did you do the dog? Now a scratch can put the dog in danger.
This greatly concerns me. It seems as though unless a dog is a trained patrol dog/military dog, a dog has no right to defend either himself or his pack. I get the impression that any dog who bites to defend himself/his pack does in fact give his life because if the attacker doesn't kill him, the courts will take him away and destroy him for being dangerous.

Slightly off topic, I know, but I had to comment on that . . .
07-10-2014 12:13 AM
CarolinaRose I just got my copy in the mail today. I'm looking forward to getting into it!

Carmspack: How do you know what you know about dog's you've never met by looking at it's pedigree?! I would love to learn to to read a pedigree like that. I went and looked at the dog, but couldn't decipher anything beyond ancestors who earned various SchH titles =/
07-06-2014 08:44 PM
Betty
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
His idea of a "threat" was hopefully not yours or mine. And his idea of appropriate action from the dog based on his ideas of threat were clouded in his own experience and life. I can't expect him to be clear and honest, based on our values today, in how he perceived his dog. So I can't say that his opinion is more correct than Doc. I don't know where Doc got his information regarding Horand, he could have made it up. But what if was from first hand accounts of how the dog behaved to those NOT in Von Stephanitz circle? Are their experiences wrong?


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Excellent point, appropriate action could mean two totally different things between then and now..................

Look how the attitude to dog bites have changed just in my lifetime. When I was a kid it was not big deal normally, and the first question that was asked was what did you do the dog? Now a scratch can put the dog in danger.
07-06-2014 12:33 PM
carmspack von Stephanitz was not the first owner of the dog.
Horand belonged to a breeding shepherd , who actually had more success breeding Horand . Von Stephanitz admitted this and conceded he was not a breeder .

Hektor / Horand had a breeding history prior to any involvement by von Stephanitz.

There were no PUBLIC breeding records, but you can be sure that the competitive shepherds knew who their valuable females were bred to and why . The progeny carefully monitored by themselves and others , at and in work , to guide their decisions .
The breeders of Wurtember were keen observers and rejoiced in their dogs which they could not live without .
They bred to keep what they had , so not slipping backward , recognized what the dogs lacked , and what the North German breeders wished to have . They had already begun to cross the dogs of the north and the south , "fostering the consolidation of the good points on both sides and in the elimination of the faults" (page 135 von Stephanitz book).

Hektor with his joie de vivre , wolf grey colour , erect ears would have been right there.

Had the dog not been good , "So" Eiselen a well respected breeder with well known kennels , would not have bothered with him . He had better success with breeding him .
Hektor/Horand was produced by premier herding breeder Sparwasser , and was brother to Luchs Sparwasser .
von Stephanitz, well traveled , well read, well connected to the "dog action" of the day , attended a major exhibition where herding dogs were brought from all regions to be put on display. He attended the show with Meyer his friend and co-founder of what would be become the Verein for the unified GSD.
von Stephanitz had already , along with the Phylax society , been breeding dogs, apparently had not found the "it", until this major show.
Everyone , including the "fancy dog enthusiastics" recognized the dog and admired him both for his external and character ideals . The dog had mental and physical soundness.
von Stephanitz had to have him , bought him on the spot .
Meyer approved , and with excitement the breed had its dog number one for the stud books.

von Stephanitz was chosen as the President of the new club , organization. von Stephanitz would have had the qualities of being able to command , to organize, to be thorough , precise , and to rule with an iron hand .

He would not have been fluffy or sentimental. He had already rejected dogs that he had bred . They did not have it.
He would not have fooled himself, and he would not have jeopardized his pride with announcing and being in command of a program that was doomed to fail. He wanted, needed a dog representing the unification of existing herding dogs , to produce a dog for national pride and utitility , a dog that would go unchallenged for this utility , not specialized , but versatile.

Get a good library . Read .
A contemporary writer and judge of the time Horowitz has entries in his book and gives his accounts .

I can't provide the titles of more books since a major chunk of my prized library is on loan at the moment.

You cannot take a partial truth and then run like a fiend inserting an agenda , that is the stuff of the tabloids .

In no other account or description have I found Hektor/Horand to be a blue dog . Never. Always wolf-grey. (sable)
07-06-2014 10:17 AM
gsdsar But you missed my point. My point was that we can't fight an opinion with another opinion. My point was not a talk on Horand. I never met the dog. The description of him was given through the rose colored glasses of the man who made him the founder of the new breed he was creating. It's biased. Von Stephanitz was a wealthy white German Military officer in the early 1900. His idea of a "threat" was hopefully not yours or mine. And his idea of appropriate action from the dog based on his ideas of threat were clouded in his own experience and life. I can't expect him to be clear and honest, based on our values today, in how he perceived his dog. So I can't say that his opinion is more correct than Doc. I don't know where Doc got his information regarding Horand, he could have made it up. But what if was from first hand accounts of how the dog behaved to those NOT in Von Stephanitz circle? Are their experiences wrong?


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07-06-2014 10:01 AM
Whiteshepherds I'm finding this book to be so much more than what some people are portraying it to be on this forum. Yes, quite a few jabs taken (a lot!) and some generalizations, always open to exceptions. I can see where people might be rolling their eyes at some of the statements. (or beating their heads against a wall) It gives the book character...I can picture sitting on a porch with the authors and listening to them talk about the breed.

It's well written, (flows nicely), interesting. It offers a lot of food for thought IMHO if you read it with an open mind. This isn't the kind of book you'll find in the pet store next to the "How to Train Your Puppy" books. It has some meat. It covers a wide spectrum, the breed standard, history, temperament, drive etc. etc.

Maybe being on this forum made the book more interesting for me... a curiosity about Doc's thoughts that he only shares from time to time..I don't really know but I am enjoying it. It's not a small book, almost 400 pages. My only complaint, the font they used could be a size bigger...or I need better glasses.
07-06-2014 07:33 AM
carmspack gsdsar said "that does not mean the dog did not happily bite or intimidate people that were of no threat."

but that is exactly why I provided the full excerpt from von Stephanitz which continued to say that the dog, Horand, was "well-disposed to harmless people" . If you were harmless , so was the dog .
He was neutral , unless otherwise necessary.
07-06-2014 06:29 AM
carmspack so that I haven't lead you down the path and left you behind in the woods , I went on a hunt to find a pedigree of a good looking dog with a good balanced pedigree.
I don't know the dog , nor the owners - nothing to be gained , just sharing a beautiful balanced pedigree .

This dog has representatives from all the pillars of the breed including a rich vein of old herding bloodlines.

Iron Will du Triangle Magique

this is how you get "old-fashioned"
07-06-2014 05:58 AM
carmspack there is no old-fashioned .
not as an organized group .
Often the "old-fashioned" are over size , colour breeders, untested , byb's.

If you want to avoid those then support breeders who are careful , responsible, savy breeders that are not commercially motivated .
07-06-2014 02:22 AM
my boy diesel nevermind**may be ot
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