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Thread: What is dignity? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-24-2014 08:52 AM
Bridget This conversation has been really good for me and clearly I had personal reasons for starting it. I don't agree with everything about dog's awareness, but the idea that we may project our idea of dignity on our dog does resonate with me. I am thinking that a) because we are human we can't help it, and b) it doesn't really matter anyhow; dignity is what it is no matter where it's coming from. The conclusion I have come to, for myself and my dog only, is that when her hips completely give out and she is dragging her back end, that will be when dignity is an issue for us and when "it's time." In other circumstances, I would be open to trying a cart, but for an old dog, no.
06-22-2014 02:49 PM
lalachka
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis_Star View Post
Well no you DO want to build a reflex. But building a reflux comes out of remembering the command

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OK, maybe they do))))) I can agree with that

But I can't agree with them remembering what they did an hour ago.

Also, about him forgetting that I exist in response to Bridgit.

I'm not trying to take away qualities from my dog so it's easier to lose him. Nothing will make it easier, even if he's blind, deaf and dumb. I just like to be honest with myself when I can and I think that means realizing that he forgets I exist when I'm not there.

Also, he has SA. If he does forget I exists then that means he's not suffering and I know he's not because I have a camera for him.

If I feed him right before I leave - the time that takes him to eat the food is always enough to forget that I left or that I existed. Once he's done he is calm and sleeps all day.

If I don't feed him he will bark for a while and I have 2 possible explanations. 1. He's in a frenzy and just barking though not sure why
2. It's still the same episode, I believe they remember what happens until they move on. Like if he was home with a pull tab and no leash, he did something wrong, I said no and followed him so I can pop the prong. It can take me 2 mins to catch up to him but it's still the same episode so I believe he will associate the pop with the no


Again, I might be wrong about everything, Just my observations and stuff I read


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06-22-2014 02:34 PM
Anubis_Star
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
They have some learning abilities for sure. I mean they remember scents, sounds, dogs, people. They recognize places.

I don't believe they remember things they did 10 mins ago in the way that we do. Like he's not sitting there remembering how he played with his friend a few hours ago.

And he doesn't remember that he raided the garbage can a few hours ago. So I don't believe that when I come home he automatically remembers everything he's done wrong when I was gone and then acts guilty about it.


About training. If we are not trying to get a reflex then why all the repetitions and generalizing commands? I thought it was so that they develop a reflex. They hear come and the reflex is to come.

But I don't know. I'm not a dog mind expert by far)))))) these are just my guesses


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Well no you DO want to build a reflex. But building a reflux comes out of remembering the command

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06-22-2014 03:40 AM
lalachka
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anubis_Star View Post
see that's just now a mindset, if they don't do it like US they can't possibly do it. It's getting caught up on definitions and technicalities...

No, they don't have the intelligence to comprehend like us. Of course they do not function like us. But, if a dog recognizes you 2 years later, it has remembered you. In fact, recognize is a synonym for remember...

As well, sitting on the second training session for the treat is not a reflex, as a reflex is automatic without a conscious thought. Now if you're still luring, your dog doesn't yet get it. But if you're past the luring stage, you say "sit", your dog takes a few seconds but then gets it. That's not a reflex. Not automatic. Not muscle memory.

They have some learning abilities for sure. I mean they remember scents, sounds, dogs, people. They recognize places.

I don't believe they remember things they did 10 mins ago in the way that we do. Like he's not sitting there remembering how he played with his friend a few hours ago.

And he doesn't remember that he raided the garbage can a few hours ago. So I don't believe that when I come home he automatically remembers everything he's done wrong when I was gone and then acts guilty about it.


About training. If we are not trying to get a reflex then why all the repetitions and generalizing commands? I thought it was so that they develop a reflex. They hear come and the reflex is to come.

But I don't know. I'm not a dog mind expert by far)))))) these are just my guesses


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06-22-2014 03:31 AM
lalachka Bridget, lol, yeah I know))))) it's funny to me too. Lol potty training undone. Poor thing probably thinks I'm confused.


I just so don't want him to feel bad about it that I almost go overboard with it))))

The thought that he's trying to hold diarrhea bothers me.

Also, what's interesting, somehow he still knows not to go in the house.


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06-22-2014 02:48 AM
Sabis mom
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
I wanted to post this question in the weekly discussion area, but only a moderator can do that. I have a quality of life scale thingy that I look at often these days, and one of the statements is that a dog would not want to live without dignity. But what, in your opinion, is dignity? Clearly, it is difficult to describe, yet we know it when we see it. I would love to hear people's thoughts and give examples too.

The definition that I am beginning to formulate is being a real dog and doing the things that dogs do. And I think a dog can have help/accommodations to do these things, such as help getting outside, without a loss of dignity. But if the help has run its course, then maybe it could be a loss of dignity issue. Please share with me your thoughts about dignity.
Sabi was my world so this is something I thought long and hard about. As her DM got to the point where she needed help getting around, I listened to stories about carts and slings and diapers. I needed to take a serious look at my dog. She was annoyed at being helped into the car, she was irritated when I offered help if she stumbled. Using the bathroom in my presence was not ok with her, accidents in the house upset her, a diaper would have mortified her. I guess some dogs would be ok with being cared for in that way, she would have been mortally offended. To me, and for my dog, not being independent and strong was a loss of dignity. It was killing me to watch, and she was miserable. I made the decision to stop before it progressed. For her it was the right decision, another dog may require a different one. Know thy dog.
06-22-2014 12:58 AM
SunCzarina Morgan was a proud lady. When she was 11her DM made it so she'd get up to tell me she had to go out to poop but opps, she already was pooping. DM messes up the signals to the brain. She always looked so ashamed she'd pooped in the house.

I didn't let her progress with the DM to the point she couldn't walk. She didn't want to leave me, her mind was still as it has always been, loyal and determined. Her last month was hard for me to see the frustration when her body just wouldn't do what she wanted it to. We made that last month grand doing the things she could still do. She was exhausted all the time but happy (and high, very high)
06-21-2014 10:06 PM
Bridget The author, Jon Katz, whom I love and hate in turn, believes that dogs have no sense of time. He tells about beagles who were only let out of their pen once a year to go hunting, but are well taken care of. He suggests that they really don't know the difference. To me, this is a ridiculous idea. Dogs don't look at clocks, nor do they know whether you are 5 minutes late feeding them or 10 minutes late. But they certainly know if it's been a long time.

As far as consciousness is concerned, I think our dogs are conscious of everything, just at a different level than we are, mostly because of their lack of verbal language. I don't think they have the ability (or the curse perhaps) to "compare." Like for instance, I used to feel guilty if I took one dog out for a romp two days in a row and didn't take another as often. Then I realized that Heidi isn't sitting there saying to herself "WTF, she took Cori yesterday too and I haven't been out since Sunday!" But she knows "never;" if I took Cori all the time and never took her, she would know. It's a lower consciousness to be sure, but they are still conscious.''

I also think, just as some folks project their desire that their dog be a child, that others project a desire that their dog not know much, maybe because it makes life easier in some ways, especially when we lose them. After all, if they don't remember us anyway, then it isn't so sad.

Lalachka, that thing you said about telling your dog it's ok to poop in the house cracked me up! I understand your meaning, but it still struck me kind of funny.
06-21-2014 07:08 AM
Anubis_Star
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalachka View Post
lol smell?

But what are you saying, dogs have memories just like we do?


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see that's just now a mindset, if they don't do it like US they can't possibly do it. It's getting caught up on definitions and technicalities...

No, they don't have the intelligence to comprehend like us. Of course they do not function like us. But, if a dog recognizes you 2 years later, it has remembered you. In fact, recognize is a synonym for remember...

As well, sitting on the second training session for the treat is not a reflex, as a reflex is automatic without a conscious thought. Now if you're still luring, your dog doesn't yet get it. But if you're past the luring stage, you say "sit", your dog takes a few seconds but then gets it. That's not a reflex. Not automatic. Not muscle memory.
06-21-2014 06:22 AM
Romany I personally feel that each dog has it's own Idea of Dignity and it would vary from one dog to the next.
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