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Thread: Service work, protection, normal dog? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-22-2014 02:13 AM
shilorio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colie CVT View Post
I do understand that one. They have a level of understanding with it, but they still have a level of focus on you that most regular pets don't have. Just my noticing between dogs who have a job and purpose beyond family friend and companion.

The most adorable thing I saw was when my friend who has a guide dog took his harness off on a hike to give him some time to relax and get some water without her getting wet in the process. He had no idea what he was supposed to do! He was trying to see if anybody who was around knew what to do lol. He's one truly amazing animal. She's one fearless woman. It is inspiring to see them work as a team out on hiking trails, navigating together. I seriously feel in awe of her. She's not completely blind, but her ability to see is down to some colors and shapes. It's her third dog she was matched with and it's a match made in heaven.


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That's really amazing and awesome to hear!
Some people really don't understand just what dogs do for us
People always question me about me and my dog but never understand
06-21-2014 02:47 PM
Colie CVT I do understand that one. They have a level of understanding with it, but they still have a level of focus on you that most regular pets don't have. Just my noticing between dogs who have a job and purpose beyond family friend and companion.

The most adorable thing I saw was when my friend who has a guide dog took his harness off on a hike to give him some time to relax and get some water without her getting wet in the process. He had no idea what he was supposed to do! He was trying to see if anybody who was around knew what to do lol. He's one truly amazing animal. She's one fearless woman. It is inspiring to see them work as a team out on hiking trails, navigating together. I seriously feel in awe of her. She's not completely blind, but her ability to see is down to some colors and shapes. It's her third dog she was matched with and it's a match made in heaven.


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06-21-2014 02:22 PM
shilorio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colie CVT View Post
I should probably clarify.

What I meant by they don't really have an "off" time is that when you train dogs to help you with things like anxiety or depression, they will be sensitive to your moods and your general demeanor. They will know when you aren't quite yourself and they will be concerned and watchful. They may offer certain tasks that they were taught how to do without having the vest on or being prompted. It can be confusing for a dog who does their best to focus on you and your needs to also keep an eye on the world around you and do something like warn.

I know that a task that some PTSD dogs have is to stand as a barricade between their handler and whatever is stressing them. However that should be a non-threatening action. Just a body block to keep their handler away from the stress. Barking is one of those tricky things where if you let it happen in one avenue, it may come up in others, and a service dog who is barking without requiring attention to be brought to the handler (I know a girl who has disassociative episodes and seizures, often leaving her suddenly on the ground and helpless that needed her dog to alert people she required help), could be seen as disruptive or potentially aggressive even if it isn't the case. People generally are fairly ignorant when it comes to dog language and tend to assume the worst first. Once a dog is encouraged to use its voice, it can be harder to get it turned off if that makes sense. And him barking if you are in a store or another place where a barking dog wouldn't be welcome, it can cause you added stress and potentially being asked to leave. Even places that allow service dogs will ask you to leave if your dog is not behaving correctly.

Believe me I understand not exactly wanting to deal with medications that alter who you are. I am fighting with my own problems right now and sadly some day soon I may be looking at medications that make being able to move and think like I am harder than it can be at times. But just in my noticing with my golden and with other service dogs of different types and levels of training, they are always on alert, regardless of the vest and if you are playing with them. If they sense a need, they'll be there to offer help. Part of what makes them good at what they do is being able to tell when you need them most.
Elios does always notify me even when he is off vest.
But for an example, I have noticed that when he is on vest he is so unbelievably calm and focused and when off leash I can tell he knows he can relax a little.

Medications are really hard and it's hard to want to change who you are, so when me and my dr talked about having a service dog, and when I tried it out, it fixed the problems. It calmed me when I never thought I'd be calm.
06-21-2014 03:06 AM
Colie CVT I should probably clarify.

What I meant by they don't really have an "off" time is that when you train dogs to help you with things like anxiety or depression, they will be sensitive to your moods and your general demeanor. They will know when you aren't quite yourself and they will be concerned and watchful. They may offer certain tasks that they were taught how to do without having the vest on or being prompted. It can be confusing for a dog who does their best to focus on you and your needs to also keep an eye on the world around you and do something like warn.

I know that a task that some PTSD dogs have is to stand as a barricade between their handler and whatever is stressing them. However that should be a non-threatening action. Just a body block to keep their handler away from the stress. Barking is one of those tricky things where if you let it happen in one avenue, it may come up in others, and a service dog who is barking without requiring attention to be brought to the handler (I know a girl who has disassociative episodes and seizures, often leaving her suddenly on the ground and helpless that needed her dog to alert people she required help), could be seen as disruptive or potentially aggressive even if it isn't the case. People generally are fairly ignorant when it comes to dog language and tend to assume the worst first. Once a dog is encouraged to use its voice, it can be harder to get it turned off if that makes sense. And him barking if you are in a store or another place where a barking dog wouldn't be welcome, it can cause you added stress and potentially being asked to leave. Even places that allow service dogs will ask you to leave if your dog is not behaving correctly.

Believe me I understand not exactly wanting to deal with medications that alter who you are. I am fighting with my own problems right now and sadly some day soon I may be looking at medications that make being able to move and think like I am harder than it can be at times. But just in my noticing with my golden and with other service dogs of different types and levels of training, they are always on alert, regardless of the vest and if you are playing with them. If they sense a need, they'll be there to offer help. Part of what makes them good at what they do is being able to tell when you need them most.
06-20-2014 09:57 PM
shilorio
Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
Since OP is probably not coming back at this point, I’ll put down my thoughts on this for others to read if they ever look this thread up, and maybe we’ll get into a fun discussion about this.

I’ve been doing some protection training for a time now, and the person I work with also has experience training PP dogs. In his opinion, a lot of it is the show the dog can put on. Most people, aren’t going to keep coming if your dog is barking its head off at them at the end of the leash. This is something trainable, and even if the dog doesn’t have the perfect temperament for this type of activity…only a few trained/experienced people will be able to tell that the barking is forced and that the dog is showing some sort of anxiety and if truly attacked would probably tuck tail and run.

To that extent, you can take it a step further with the right dog and train it to bite a sleeve or a coat. You can then remove those things and bite hidden sleeves and basically “trick” the dog into biting a “regular presentation” rather than what our sport dogs are used to seeing.

Now, most of protection IMO is an obedience exercise. It’s teaching your dog when it’s okay to do X and when it isn’t. It’s quite fun to teach this to a dog, and over the past few months I’ve taught my dog to turn on and off at a command and it’s pretty cool knowing that at any point that I feel threatened by someone, I can turn my dog on, walk past them, and then turn him off. As my instructor put it, you can easily make the excuse to a stranger that your dog is just aggressive towards everyone or that “he never does this, I don’t know what’s gotten into him” until you’re past the situation. Will my dog bite if given the chance? Yes. But I haven’t yet progressed onto a hidden sleeve and unlikely that I will at this point because I’m not looking for that.

So, can a service dog be taught this. I’m sure it can. But I don’t think it has anything to do with a vest being on or off. I personally wouldn’t want a dog making its own decisions on a hiking trail about what is a threat and what isn’t. I can also imagine there could be some problems if your “service dog” ever acted out like this in public either when it was supposed to or it wasn’t. A dog with public access rights is IMO held to a much higher standard than a regular dog, and if your dog shows any type of aggression…warranted or not, you might be quite a bit of trouble.

The problem with the social anxiety disorder you have is that the dog's service to you is to calm you when you get anxious. The dog learns this and picks up on your chemicals to do this. I do not believe that you can teach the dog that when he's wearing the vest he reacts one way to your anxiety, and when he's not wearing the vest he reacts a different way. It will lead to a lot of confusion, and more than likely the wrong reaction in the wrong situation if he's ever tested. And if we assume you could do that, what if the vest is off, and you get anxious for the wrong reason and the person coming towards you is completely friendly...your dog does what he's trained and attacks. You realize you just lost your dog right?
Thank you.
My dog is trained that when he senses my anxiety and or break down he nudges, tugs and lays on me until I am alright.
I always wanted to do schutzhund (honestly for the obedience, and like you said the "switch") but I haven't done any other training besides service work . Even when I've been so busy we have just worked on going to school and places practicing his long down waits.
Thank you guys for the feed back.
I'm going to just continue what I've been doing!
06-20-2014 09:47 PM
shilorio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colie CVT View Post
This would be why I have two different dogs. My golden is the one who helps me with things when I need him to help me and my female shepherd is the one who tells people they best stay away if she feels there is a good threat (she's very defensive of the car). However, if we were just walking down the road or out hiking trails, she is a perfect lady. She will walk right by people or walk up and ask for attention. She's good with everyone that she comes across, canine or human alike. You would never believe that she is the protection dog if you didn't see her in my car or working with the trainer.

Service dogs don't necessarily get to be "off". They should generally always be aware. I have seen the difference between when the vest is on and isn't on in perhaps a level of focus, but it is never fully gone. Times when I feel shaky or find myself on the ground needing help up (thank you totally screwed up left leg), my golden is there. He is very in tune with emotions, and he tends to kind of watch people we are out with if he thinks they may require help through steep or rocky sections, just as he would help me.

Generally speaking the sheer size and look of a GSD will make people think twice because of associations with what they can do. My first GSD was big and all she had to do generally was look at people with her ears forward and tail up to get them giving us some space lol. She was a total bluffer too.
Before I trained him to do Service work I talked to many device dog handlers and trainers about what I wanted him for, he is for panic attacks , anxiety attacks, and my bipolar swings.
There fore he is not having to be with me at all times. So I bring him where I know I will have these issues, ie crowds, elevators, stressful places ect.
Why can't service dogs have off time?
I think he does really well, working and being rewarded with off time. He enjoys his work and he enjoys his play. He is a well rounded dog .
I agree with no off time iif the dog is a seeing eye dog or a medical alert such as low blood pressure but he is not .
He makes me happy and not have a break down in public, I would rather have a service dog then to take pills that make me who I am not.
I was just curious as to if it was possible. Not saying I would do it.
But thank you all for your feed back, I appreciate it a lot
06-20-2014 09:39 PM
shilorio And for when I said he seldomly would bark on walks, that would be off vest, at night when I would comand him to speak.
He use to be reactive on leash but we have fully over came that with the help of the vest, I believe.
06-20-2014 09:36 PM
shilorio Sorry I forgot about this thread.
By protection attitude I mean he barks when someone is around my house at night . Or if someone strange enters the house and he is in the kennel in a different room.
I said that barking on leash was one of the problems we completely over came.
I have been training him as a service dog for a year and he is perfect now .
He knows when to be a dog and a service dog. He is meet reactive on leash. To anything. Bird, child, dog, person, nothing.
I have very bad social skills and get extremely anxious. That's why I was asking about, hiking and if he would protect me or if he would do nothing.

So to answer some of you.
He is not leash reactive what so ever.
I have trained all service work for me and my issues for the past year.
I was simply asking your all opinion.
I have never once tried to train both.
I have asked many other service dog handlers to see if there dogs do the same as Elios (perfect on vest and bark at things at home, unless told to stop)
And they say there's all did that too.
I just wanted some feed back one thoughts
06-20-2014 11:05 AM
martemchik Since OP is probably not coming back at this point, I’ll put down my thoughts on this for others to read if they ever look this thread up, and maybe we’ll get into a fun discussion about this.

I’ve been doing some protection training for a time now, and the person I work with also has experience training PP dogs. In his opinion, a lot of it is the show the dog can put on. Most people, aren’t going to keep coming if your dog is barking its head off at them at the end of the leash. This is something trainable, and even if the dog doesn’t have the perfect temperament for this type of activity…only a few trained/experienced people will be able to tell that the barking is forced and that the dog is showing some sort of anxiety and if truly attacked would probably tuck tail and run.

To that extent, you can take it a step further with the right dog and train it to bite a sleeve or a coat. You can then remove those things and bite hidden sleeves and basically “trick” the dog into biting a “regular presentation” rather than what our sport dogs are used to seeing.

Now, most of protection IMO is an obedience exercise. It’s teaching your dog when it’s okay to do X and when it isn’t. It’s quite fun to teach this to a dog, and over the past few months I’ve taught my dog to turn on and off at a command and it’s pretty cool knowing that at any point that I feel threatened by someone, I can turn my dog on, walk past them, and then turn him off. As my instructor put it, you can easily make the excuse to a stranger that your dog is just aggressive towards everyone or that “he never does this, I don’t know what’s gotten into him” until you’re past the situation. Will my dog bite if given the chance? Yes. But I haven’t yet progressed onto a hidden sleeve and unlikely that I will at this point because I’m not looking for that.

So, can a service dog be taught this. I’m sure it can. But I don’t think it has anything to do with a vest being on or off. I personally wouldn’t want a dog making its own decisions on a hiking trail about what is a threat and what isn’t. I can also imagine there could be some problems if your “service dog” ever acted out like this in public either when it was supposed to or it wasn’t. A dog with public access rights is IMO held to a much higher standard than a regular dog, and if your dog shows any type of aggression…warranted or not, you might be quite a bit of trouble.

The problem with the social anxiety disorder you have is that the dog's service to you is to calm you when you get anxious. The dog learns this and picks up on your chemicals to do this. I do not believe that you can teach the dog that when he's wearing the vest he reacts one way to your anxiety, and when he's not wearing the vest he reacts a different way. It will lead to a lot of confusion, and more than likely the wrong reaction in the wrong situation if he's ever tested. And if we assume you could do that, what if the vest is off, and you get anxious for the wrong reason and the person coming towards you is completely friendly...your dog does what he's trained and attacks. You realize you just lost your dog right?
06-20-2014 10:48 AM
Ace GSD
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deno View Post
It's possible for the right person to train the right dog to do about anything.

Although possible, it is not probable with the average owner & dog.

Like TW said, just get you a pistola, 38 caliber minimum.

For reliability I recommend a revolver.

hehe
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