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Thread: Bill C-615 to Ban Electric Shock Collars in Canada Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
10-09-2014 12:38 PM
T U N D R A Anyone ever seen the movie "Sybil" ..?
The poor girl was tortured by her own mother so much that she was afraid of ~dish towels~ .
These are common, ordinary, everyday things that hav a function and use. But mis-used, Anything can hav a negative connotation.
Guns, in the wrong hands, without proper information, can do damage.
So can a garden rake.
LE uses shock or "stimulus" collars all the time. They work.
In the wrong hands, of course these devices can be abused.. but the majority of people that invest the $150 for a dog collar are interested in conditioning behaviors, and getting a dog to listen/obey. Period. Consider a dog that doesn't (listen) and runs across the street and gets hit by a car. The collars help establish consistency, alpha position, and without the owner getting "worn out" with other, more taxing methods.
I use a collar but the way to use it is I really only had to use the stimulus a few times and she caught on fast. Years later, I almost use the "beep" tone exclusively. The "beep" tone sounds as a precursor to the stimuli/shock and the dog knows this. They learn fasst. Combine that with they really do want to please and you hav a highly effective tool.
Personally I think its cruel having to use a needle to giv me that flu shot..
10-06-2014 01:04 AM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomcat View Post
Does everybody realize this also will ban the electric - invisible fences? Which also use electric shock collars as their means of containing the dogs.

We have a training collar for our dog, which we could find one with the beep only. She has been trained since a puppy to come back when we beep it. Saves going outside and calling her, simply push button and beep. I have yet to find one with the beep only mode though. So this law would effectively also outlaw those who use beeping only.
I dunno. Don't like invisible fences either. Still, I should think the government could find better things to waste their time and the people's money on.
10-05-2014 09:57 AM
Tomcat
Not sure if all understand impacts..

Does everybody realize this also will ban the electric - invisible fences? Which also use electric shock collars as their means of containing the dogs.

We have a training collar for our dog, which we could find one with the beep only. She has been trained since a puppy to come back when we beep it. Saves going outside and calling her, simply push button and beep. I have yet to find one with the beep only mode though. So this law would effectively also outlaw those who use beeping only.
07-07-2014 03:18 PM
jafo220
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob_McBob View Post
Nothing at all, I'm just curious if Lou's protocol and similar methods would be considered unusual vs. just straight corrections to reinforce known behaviours. Michael Ellis appears to use both in his training methods.



I've certainly seen various Youtube videos of professional ecollar trainers either clearly following Lou's protocols or else something very similar. Sean O'Shea is an obvious example. I've never seen this kind of low level stim and escape/negative reinforcement training mentioned in scientific research, which tends to focus exclusively on aversive corrections. Opinions are split between following Lou or Michael on the forum here, but Lou's protocols and similar negative reinforcement techniques are extremely well-represented among enthusiast dog owners on forums, ecollar trainers with online presence, ecollar information sites, and so on; far more so than the research or general public understanding would seem to indicate. It's one of the reasons Lou is so critical of most ecollar research. Is this just my imagination?

I was going to say I hadn't seen continuous low level stim discussed by positive trainers or those otherwise opposed to ecollar use, but it appears the usual propaganda warns people about new "misleading marketing" like "escape training" and "negative reinforcement". Right before the part where it describes the "common" problem of ecollars malfunctioning spectacularly and causing severe electrical burns while the dog runs around screaming from the continuous torture
Low level stims are different things to different dogs. Thats the way I understand "low level" stim training. If I remember correctly, there is a method to finding this setting for each individual dog. It's not the same generic level of stim for every dog. This training must also be done with select e-collar systems or brands to work properly.

As far as research goes, it depends on who is funding the research and who is involved with the research. I think you would get two different results from two studies, one using one low level stim like what Lou trains with and one study using low to high level stems with maybe less experience or less thought into the training. JMO

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07-07-2014 02:30 PM
Bob_McBob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baillif View Post
What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"
Nothing at all, I'm just curious if Lou's protocol and similar methods would be considered unusual vs. just straight corrections to reinforce known behaviours. Michael Ellis appears to use both in his training methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Ellis
If I've done leash pressure work and my dog really understands that ... and I use the leash and the Ecollar together, I minimize all the weirdness that can potentially happen or the bad associations or the superstitious associations that can happen. So leash pressure is going to be an integral part of our system of training and it is the escape part of the escape avoidance paradigm. The avoidance part is where the dog learns to avoid an unpleasant consequence by either doing or not doing something. The escape part is where the dog learns to turn pressure off with their behavior. Like pulling the leash, they move, it stops ... I turn off the Ecollar. They down, it stops. (As he says this on the video he lifts his thumb as if lifting it off the button of an Ecollar). That's escape. Avoidance means, of correction. My dog jumps on the counter I hit him with the collar, I bonk him (and he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction) I give him a leash correction, whatever, he figures out that he can avoid that by not jumping on the counter. I can say sit, my dog doesn’t, I can give him a correction (he moves his hands as if giving a leash correction). Next time I say sit he sits in an attempt to avoid what happens afterwards. Pretty straight forward. So all pressure stuff is going to fall into one of those two categories, either the escape portion or the avoidance portion.
I've certainly seen various Youtube videos of professional ecollar trainers either clearly following Lou's protocols or else something very similar. Sean O'Shea is an obvious example. I've never seen this kind of low level stim and escape/negative reinforcement training mentioned in scientific research, which tends to focus exclusively on aversive corrections. Opinions are split between following Lou or Michael on the forum here, but Lou's protocols and similar negative reinforcement techniques are extremely well-represented among enthusiast dog owners on forums, ecollar trainers with online presence, ecollar information sites, and so on; far more so than the research or general public understanding would seem to indicate. It's one of the reasons Lou is so critical of most ecollar research. Is this just my imagination?

I was going to say I hadn't seen continuous low level stim discussed by positive trainers or those otherwise opposed to ecollar use, but it appears the usual propaganda warns people about new "misleading marketing" like "escape training" and "negative reinforcement". Right before the part where it describes the "common" problem of ecollars malfunctioning spectacularly and causing severe electrical burns while the dog runs around screaming from the continuous torture
07-07-2014 01:01 PM
Baillif Fair enough.
07-07-2014 12:29 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Baillif View Post
What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"
I don't think that was the question. I was just responding to the idea of shaping behaviors using an e-collar.
07-07-2014 12:15 PM
Baillif What's wrong with using an e collar for "corrections?"
07-07-2014 10:51 AM
selzer I am sure that good trainers can use the tool for other than corrections, but will the majority of people use them that way? Consider prong collars. They can be used in protection training to increase something or other as per some post here quite a while ago, but most people use them for corrections or for power steering.

I am guessing that most people out there training dogs haven't even heard of shaping behavior.
07-07-2014 03:31 AM
Bob_McBob Is shaping behaviour with continuous low level stim like Lou Castle's protocols especially unusual in the dog training world? Every study about ecollars I read has them being used exclusively for correction, usually with the tone or vibrate as a "warning cue" for an impending correction. They rarely say anything about the model or method of setting working level. The study I'm reading now specifically says they only set the working level once, on the first day of training over a five day period. Results were judged subjectively by owners.
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