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Topic Review (Newest First)
06-16-2014 04:00 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packen View Post
You need to focus on getting 5 paces done right first, then think about extending.
Ya I get that however the hypothetical questions are in relation to ensuring I understand the training method. Its not actually what I am doing right now.
06-16-2014 03:23 PM
Packen You need to focus on getting 5 paces done right first, then think about extending.
06-16-2014 04:01 AM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packen View Post
Yes sorta, but I would not extend the 1st leg to 100 paces but that's just me (you may have a super dog). If I have to go a 100 paces then I would run the motion exercises earlier at say 20-30 paces, reward, THEN go 170 paces and use reg reward/correction. Also I would not pop the ball reward for anything other before the down, give her hope for the down and use tools to maintain drive and position before that.

Ahh so no reward on backups anymore until motion exercises are perfect? Will this lack of reenforcement not lead to her losing hope on the backup and thus diminish its effectivness as a drive builder?

When you say reg rewards/correction for the 170 pace heel do you mean IM popping the ball at various points to keep the drive up or just correcting inattention for 170 paces then doing a down in motion and popping a ball?
06-16-2014 12:49 AM
Packen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
So as an example of using this method:

Lets say I have taught the forward heel and turns..and want to focus on a down in motion. With the back up and reward routine.

So I "foose" the dog forward 100 paces make an about turn (at this point I notice a slight decrease in drive) so I backup two paces BUT I do not reward (as I have previously) her drive comes up as she anticipates reward, I resume my forward motion a few paces, down the dog in motion and reward.

The next round I heel the dog forward but because I noticed in the previous round that her duration needs building I walk forward 20 paces back up two, mark and pop the ball.


Am I understanding this right?
Yes sorta, but I would not extend the 1st leg to 100 paces but that's just me (you may have a super dog). If I have to go a 100 paces then I would run the motion exercises earlier at say 20-30 paces, reward, THEN go 170 paces and use reg reward/correction. Also I would not pop the ball reward for anything other before the down, give her hope for the down and use tools to maintain drive and position before that.
06-16-2014 12:44 AM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packen View Post
Another way of saying it is "you can't teach them everything at the same time by rewards or corrections" choose 1 item, reward for that 1 item as first reward. If that item comes after 3-4 other items that you have already taught and perfected, then use the play tools to get the dog to perform great for those 3-4 items THEN reward for the item that you are focussing on. One thing at a time, the training tools (plays routines) buffer the dog past earlier known items without losing drive or handler engagement. Make sense?

So as an example of using this method:

Lets say I have taught the forward heel and turns..and want to focus on a down in motion. With the back up and reward routine.

So I "foose" the dog forward 100 paces make an about turn (at this point I notice a slight decrease in drive) so I backup two paces BUT I do not reward (as I have previously) her drive comes up as she anticipates reward, I resume my forward motion a few paces, down the dog in motion and reward.

The next round I heel the dog forward but because I noticed in the previous round that her duration needs building I walk forward 20 paces back up two, mark and pop the ball.


Am I understanding this right?
06-15-2014 04:43 PM
lsatov Great explanation, this is how I have trained my dog works great, dog is always in drive and continues to maintain it. When getting ready to go on to the field before a competition I have a simple routine that builds the drive.

At the end of exercises and before the begining of the next if I observe a sublte decrease always do a subtle exercise that continues to build the drive.
06-15-2014 04:41 PM
Packen Another way of saying it is "you can't teach them everything at the same time by rewards or corrections" choose 1 item, reward for that 1 item as first reward. If that item comes after 3-4 other items that you have already taught and perfected, then use the play tools to get the dog to perform great for those 3-4 items THEN reward for the item that you are focussing on. One thing at a time, the training tools (plays routines) buffer the dog past earlier known items without losing drive or handler engagement. Make sense?
06-15-2014 04:31 PM
Packen
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
This is an interesting approach. I have never seen it used around here..tbh most people in these parts are still yanking and cranking so thats not saying much.
Def different then the mark / reward / punishment then go to variable stimulation method Im familiar with. I can see how it would get certain dogs amped up.

Almost like a game for the dog..you have to be fast to keep up and get the reward your not sure what Im going to do next?

So when do you fade the reward during normal heeling and start backing up to reward?
Once you start doing this do you ever reward the dog during normal heeling again?

Is there a resource to read more about this method?
Even when you initiate the play sequence, you are working the dog. When you back up you are indirectly teaching them to navigate using back legs, if not in position you can use the nick feature you already trained earlier to pop them back in position. It is dangerous to say "never" in dog training, when you start to fade reward in forward heeling there is a purpose. The purpose is to get the dog to anticipate the "sit" out of motion command and think, "when is he going to command me to sit as I get the reward there". This happens after a few sessions of fading the earlier "heeling" reward. After the sit reward, you can use reward or correction as needed for forward heeling. Every dog is different and you need to read the need! Main purpose is to get the first reward during the OB routine belong to the exercise you are focussing on and get the dog to remember that particular exercise as the "first" reward only comes there. It is all a balancing act. The play exercises help you get there by choosing reward points and keep drive and engagement levels high till the end.
06-15-2014 02:12 AM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packen View Post
No harm no foul Blitz, training talk is interesting and you have a good dog so even more interesting.

The main reason for adding the position play (going back, sideways, snap left turn, going between legs etc) breaks up the routine of just regular heeling and keeps it very interesting for the dog and the handler essentially uses these play exercises to make position perfect or as close to perfect as possible. Secondly, switching the reward for the play exercises serves 2 very important purposes.

First purpose is to keep engagement level high and keep the dog's interest in the handler. Second purpose is to fade reward from normal heeling. Why does one need to fade reward from normal heeling? Well because once normal heeling is close to being perfect the handler needs to starte thinking ahead and work on motion exercises. One way to success is to reward for the motion exercises most of the time. The dog comes on to the field and starts to eagerly anticipate the sit/down/stand out of motion commands as you reward here. Therefore you fade the reward for normal heeling (when the dog is walking) to just the motion exercise to build drive for them (reward at sit/down/stand). As you fade the heeling reward, you need to keep drive and excitement level up, here you use the tools (2-3 steps back/reward etc) to control drive and keep position perfect yet keep dog awaiting motion exercises for reward.

Next comes the retrieves and send-out. You fade motion reward and reward at send-out and so forth. Now dog heels, does motion, retrieves and still has high drive as he knows the reward is at the send-out.

Dunno if I explained it clearly but the lil tricks (going back, left turn, between legs etc) provides you the tools to use to add more and more exercises to OB and carefully select and fade reward points yet keep drive level high and things very interesting for the dog. The dog wants to be with the handler and work for him/her.

The terms "flashy/sporty/flat/real" are often used by people who do not know how to buildup and incorporate these tools. These very well accepted excuses in the pet community
This is an interesting approach. I have never seen it used around here..tbh most people in these parts are still yanking and cranking so thats not saying much.
Def different then the mark / reward / punishment then go to variable stimulation method Im familiar with. I can see how it would get certain dogs amped up.

Almost like a game for the dog..you have to be fast to keep up and get the reward your not sure what Im going to do next?

So when do you fade the reward during normal heeling and start backing up to reward?
Once you start doing this do you ever reward the dog during normal heeling again?

Is there a resource to read more about this method?
06-14-2014 02:52 PM
Packen No harm no foul Blitz, training talk is interesting and you have a good dog so even more interesting.

The main reason for adding the position play (going back, sideways, snap left turn, going between legs etc) breaks up the routine of just regular heeling and keeps it very interesting for the dog and the handler essentially uses these play exercises to make position perfect or as close to perfect as possible. Secondly, switching the reward for the play exercises serves 2 very important purposes.

First purpose is to keep engagement level high and keep the dog's interest in the handler. Second purpose is to fade reward from normal heeling. Why does one need to fade reward from normal heeling? Well because once normal heeling is close to being perfect the handler needs to starte thinking ahead and work on motion exercises. One way to success is to reward for the motion exercises most of the time. The dog comes on to the field and starts to eagerly anticipate the sit/down/stand out of motion commands as you reward here. Therefore you fade the reward for normal heeling (when the dog is walking) to just the motion exercise to build drive for them (reward at sit/down/stand). As you fade the heeling reward, you need to keep drive and excitement level up, here you use the tools (2-3 steps back/reward etc) to control drive and keep position perfect yet keep dog awaiting motion exercises for reward.

Next comes the retrieves and send-out. You fade motion reward and reward at send-out and so forth. Now dog heels, does motion, retrieves and still has high drive as he knows the reward is at the send-out.

Dunno if I explained it clearly but the lil tricks (going back, left turn, between legs etc) provides you the tools to use to add more and more exercises to OB and carefully select and fade reward points yet keep drive level high and things very interesting for the dog. The dog wants to be with the handler and work for him/her.

The terms "flashy/sporty/flat/real" are often used by people who do not know how to buildup and incorporate these tools. These very well accepted excuses in the pet community
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