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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-31-2014 11:07 PM
Kayos and Havoc
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
I am a bit torn by this one, TBH.


But at the end if the day. Even if the child came into my yard, if MY dogs did this. I would PTS, or at least remove the dogs. I just could not live with myself. I could not stay in the area with my dogs, knowing that a young child would have to live a few doors down from dogs that mauled her. I could not be THAT person. Probably why I am so hyper vigilant and why my dogs are never unsupervised in my yard.

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I can understand this but I would not be so quick to PTS. Years ago I had a young 6 year old boy wander into my yard with my two (now deceased) GSD's. I saw the kid come through the gate leaving it open and make a bee line for Wolfie. He climbed on Wolfie as I cam out the door. All Wolfie did was lay down to try to wiggle out from under the boy. GOOD DOG!!!! But at the end of the day, if Wolfie had nipped or bitten the kid as far as I was concerned the kid had it coming. Neither dog left the yard and I was there immediately. And this is the reason I now padlock my gate and have security cameras.

While I agree the dog might have had a loose screw, depending on the circumstances I may or may not PTS.

Very sad all around. I find it interesting that the reporter was prompting the child about barking and not being able to sleep and being scared due to the barking. If that and been an issue they should have complained.

All said, the dogs will most likely lose their lives. If they were loose and the attack unprovoked they should be PTS.
05-31-2014 10:32 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by llombardo View Post
It doesn't solve anything putting a dog to sleep when the owner is negligent, because they are getting another dog immediately after they failed the first one. A problem dog in one home isn't necessarily a problem dog in the right home, I have two of those that proves it. Most(not all) dogs that bite are showing signs of being capable of that and its ignored. If the dog has no training of boundaries then that dog has nothing. These dogs don't ask to be put in these homes, it's the luck of the crappy draw. We can't save them all, but I believe they deserve that chance. There are only two reasons a dog will bite, genetics and lack of training(human error), sadly we can't do anything about the genetics.
There are hundreds of thousands of GSDs out there in less than perfect homes, with no training, with few if any boundaries that are not attacking little children. If you have a suitable home for such dogs that has not already demonstrated its inability to manage the dogs, then that would be up to whomever needs to make the decision. But wasting any resources (to foster or find the dog a home) on dogs with serious bite histories just doesn't make any sense when dogs are being put down daily who have no such history.

The one thing it does do is it ensures that no one has to explain to another mother or father why that specific dog did serious damage or killed their child, after having had such a strike already against it. There is really nothing in place to ensure that whoever takes on such a dog is capable of managing it.

I am not saying that that is what has to happen to these dogs. I agree with Chris that there are just too many unexplained questions in this case.

And, I think there is a lot we can do with genetics. Even dogs who have weak nerves, problems with storms, quick movements, etc. Even these dogs in the right hands can become more confident, and less likely to bite, and they can be managed properly. Domestic animals all have a human responsible for them. So when an animal behaves badly, you can always say that a human is responsible. But that does not give the animal a pass so that it can do it again.

Think about the Rottweiler in Africa. It was "rehabilitated" by some Cesar-wannabe, and called a Service Dog, and brought into a crowded eating portion of a large mall. A small child walking by was severely attacked by the dog. Giving dogs second and third chances is not protecting children. If it is clear that a dog is attacking with an intent to kill, or if a dog seriously attacks a small child causing death or serious disfigurement, society has to ensure that that dog doesn't get a chance to do it again. AND if the owners can be found criminally negligent, they need to face consequences too.

I am not talking about every single bite. I am talking about attacks. I am talking about when dogs cross the line of communicating their fear or displeasure, and go into some type of prey mode or attack mode, where the act more like a wild animal than a domestic pet.
05-31-2014 03:37 PM
Chris Wild I have very mixed feelings on this. On the one hand, I believe any GSD who would deliberately harm a young child without significant provocation has a screw loose. On the other hand there are so many unknowns in what has been reported in this story that it is impossible to tell exactly what happened, exactly what the dogs did and their reason for doing it.

Why was a 4yo running about unsupervised? Was there any sort of provocation?
If the dogs were in some sort of "attack mode", why wasn't the neighbor who rescued the child before the mom got there also injured? Where did it happen? While it doesn't say where, it does imply that this may have been in the dogs' own yard as it says mom "heard the screams from 2 doors down" and then the camera pans exactly 2 doors down to show where the dogs live.

I'm beginning to think that it would be wise for every person with children and every dog owner to put up security cameras on their property. Then the exact circumstances surrounding things like this would be known. Like the video with the cat. That dog was clearly showing direct, intentional, predatory behavior against a child. The only reasonable response to that sort of behavior IMO is a "lead injection". But in this situation there is too much unknown for us to make any sort of judgment based on the very lacking news story. Hopefully the judge making the decision gets all of the facts from both sides.
05-31-2014 03:30 PM
llombardo It doesn't solve anything putting a dog to sleep when the owner is negligent, because they are getting another dog immediately after they failed the first one. A problem dog in one home isn't necessarily a problem dog in the right home, I have two of those that proves it. Most(not all) dogs that bite are showing signs of being capable of that and its ignored. If the dog has no training of boundaries then that dog has nothing. These dogs don't ask to be put in these homes, it's the luck of the crappy draw. We can't save them all, but I believe they deserve that chance. There are only two reasons a dog will bite, genetics and lack of training(human error), sadly we can't do anything about the genetics.
05-31-2014 12:13 PM
selzer The dog on the chain shows clear negligence on the part of the dog owners. I do not have a problem with putting a dog on a chain. But if you have a formidable dog, it is an attractive nuisance, children need to be blocked from access for their safety. And a chain simply does not do that. Also, a dog on a chain, can be guarding. The act of chaining a dog to something, for some reason puts the message to some days to guard.

If that dog was a GSD, then I would say put it down. Because the owners are not suited to the breed or to dog ownership, and the level of damage done, what is the point in wasting resources on such a dog, since the dog's owners who supposedly love the dog are unfit. It would be sad. Because it would have been totally preventable.

These dogs definitely have an area that seems secure. Animal control seemed to feel the area was secure enough to leave the dogs there to quarantine them, and they do check that. (My dog killed a raccoon and I called the health department, concerned about rabies, and they came out and told me to quarantine the dog, and where he was was fine to quarantine him.)

Here's the thing, how did the neighbor contain the dogs so fast and save the child. By the time a woman heard the screams of her child and ran two doors down, the child was pulled to safety. Some how the dogs bit her too? How? I have seen dogs in an all out attack. One guy would have a heck of a time pulling two dogs off and kenneling them. If the dogs were intent on killing the child, how did he prevent it?

I am trying to think how I would. I would probably grab one dog and drag it to the fence and shove it in and then go back for the other dog. And drag it off the child. How did the dogs get to the mother, but are not concerned with the neighbor at all. If he went into the pen, and lifted the child out of the pen, over the fence, or if he reached over and pulled the child to safety, but then, how did the dogs get to the mother?

I am trying to picture how this happened. If the dogs were only trying scratch and play with the child, rough play, being yelled at by the neighbor could drive them off of her, and then when the mother was screaming and hollering onto the scene the dogs might have amped up on that. But even then, how did she get away if the dogs were all out attacking. How did she get away without serious injuries?

The thing is, when one dog does something awful, lots of times the other dogs will join in, and it seems like things can escalate faster with more than one dog present.

I guess we will just have to see how the court rules on this, or if more information is released. Not sure why it would be. German Shepherds attack child is not necessarily that out of the ordinary from all I hear.
05-31-2014 08:15 AM
llombardo
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsdsar View Post
I am a bit torn by this one, TBH.

The recent case of a chained dog disfiguring a child. I called for the dog to be euthanized. Because the attack was so horrific and disproportionate to the "threat". All the while I place responsibility on the parents of the child.

So I feel a bit hypocritical not feeling the same way about this attack. But I am on the fence. The attack was not as severe. But was that due to quickness of response by a neighbor? Did the child go into a fenced yard? If the dogs got loose, that's a different story. It shows an inability to properly contain the dogs. The dogs had never shown this type if aggression before. I know my dogs could get carried away playing and being jerks without it being aggression. But I don't know if that's what happened here. We don't have all the facts.

But at the end if the day. Even if the child came into my yard, if MY dogs did this. I would PTS, or at least remove the dogs. I just could not live with myself. I could not stay in the area with my dogs, knowing that a young child would have to live a few doors down from dogs that mauled her. I could not be THAT person. Probably why I am so hyper vigilant and why my dogs are never unsupervised in my yard.


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I have to say its nice to see honesty again it's all about circumstances, ownership, and history. I disagree with the dog on the chain being put to sleep, that was ignorance on the parents part. They could have prevented that by buying a crate . They are the kind if people that would think its funny and post a video of the dog growling over a bone. It's a shame the child got hurt, but I personally can't base putting a dog to sleep based on injuries. People like them should not own a dog. It's a proven fact that dogs on chains can be more aggressive and then add a bone in there to add to that, no those people had no clue what they were doing and put their own child at risk. I'm sure that they seen the behavior prior to the incident and did nothing. As for you feeling bad if a child entered your yard and something bad happen..you are a good owner, you do everything in your power to protect your dogs and people around them, these are the circumstances I refer to. You shouldn't have to make the choice of removing your dog, you wouldn't be negligent and shouldn't feel that way. If there is no negligence on your part, then let the people with the child move if they don't feel comfortable, they should have been watching their kid.
05-31-2014 08:00 AM
llombardo
Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
If the dogs were not on their property and attacked the four year old girl, then yes, they should be PTS. And, their owner should be fined, and responsible for all the medical costs. I do not think that the wounds look so much like bites as scratches though. I've had GSD bites, and there is an awful lot of damage, even with a single bite. I just have no sympathy for owners who leave their dogs roam. It is surprising that they have such a nice secure area for the dogs and the dogs were out, if they were.
This is my point.... I don't believe these dogs were roaming(if happened to close to the house)I don't think these dogs should be put to sleep if they got out. Accidents happen and there should be forgiveness toward the animal because of that. We all know that no matter the breed that sometimes things happen. I think that in dog bite situations there are lots of things to consider..circumstances, bite history, care that is given to the dog by owner, etc . I just think that lots of people are more forgiving to a GSD versus a pit bull and that shouldn't be the case. GSD's can escape just like a pit bull or any other dog, they aren't special. There is always going to be negligence, but it's not on the dog, go for the owner. Dogs that bite won't necessarily ever do it again , I know because my oldest female bit someone pretty bad one time and never has even attempted it again. I didn't think for a minute to put her to sleep, but I got rid of the person she bit Any dog can bite at any time, so whether they have or haven't can make a person crazy wondering when and if it will happen. I'm just not on the PTS if they bite bandwagon, there is going to be a reason they bit 90% of the time.
05-30-2014 11:33 PM
gsdsar I am a bit torn by this one, TBH.

The recent case of a chained dog disfiguring a child. I called for the dog to be euthanized. Because the attack was so horrific and disproportionate to the "threat". All the while I place responsibility on the parents of the child.

So I feel a bit hypocritical not feeling the same way about this attack. But I am on the fence. The attack was not as severe. But was that due to quickness of response by a neighbor? Did the child go into a fenced yard? If the dogs got loose, that's a different story. It shows an inability to properly contain the dogs. The dogs had never shown this type if aggression before. I know my dogs could get carried away playing and being jerks without it being aggression. But I don't know if that's what happened here. We don't have all the facts.

But at the end if the day. Even if the child came into my yard, if MY dogs did this. I would PTS, or at least remove the dogs. I just could not live with myself. I could not stay in the area with my dogs, knowing that a young child would have to live a few doors down from dogs that mauled her. I could not be THAT person. Probably why I am so hyper vigilant and why my dogs are never unsupervised in my yard.


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05-30-2014 11:22 PM
selzer If the dogs were not on their property and attacked the four year old girl, then yes, they should be PTS. And, their owner should be fined, and responsible for all the medical costs. I do not think that the wounds look so much like bites as scratches though. I've had GSD bites, and there is an awful lot of damage, even with a single bite. I just have no sympathy for owners who leave their dogs roam. It is surprising that they have such a nice secure area for the dogs and the dogs were out, if they were.
05-30-2014 11:10 PM
llombardo
Quote:
Originally Posted by sparra View Post
If they were Pitts and they decided to rough her up a bit she would be dead.

If they were roaming and did this wouldn't they have been seized??
I think that depends, they did not seize the dog that bit Gator(they might have by now, but didn't up to a week after the attack) If the neighbor wasn't there in this case those dogs would have killed this girl. I have no doubt about that.
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