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Topic Review (Newest First)
07-18-2014 01:10 PM
hunterisgreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freddy View Post
I think a young dog should not be worked on the square table unless they are being worked by someone who knows how to read a dog. I've seen shy defensive dogs light up with confidence once they understand what's going on. More harm than good can be done if you don't know what you're doing.


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I don't think any dog should be worked anywhere unless they are being worked by someone who knows how to read a dog
07-13-2014 08:23 PM
Freddy I think a young dog should not be worked on the square table unless they are being worked by someone who knows how to read a dog. I've seen shy defensive dogs light up with confidence once they understand what's going on. More harm than good can be done if you don't know what you're doing.


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07-13-2014 10:45 AM
Jmoore728 Great topic. I built a round table a few months ago.
Sportwaffen K9
Instead of doing 12" height, I chose to do 36".

During a seminar a few weeks ago, he wanted to work Bane (now 10 months old) on the table. His first time. Only prey work. He did great in my opinion. Nice bark and energy, extremely interested in the bite pillow. After a little talk, we decided it would be better to decrease the height of the table. Take it down to 20" or so. Not for sure if that's been completed yet. I built the table for use at the training grounds. I'll know today.

As of right now, we have been working a lot of puppies on it for basic obedience, positioning, or prey work.

My lack of confidence/knowledge is in working a dog in defense. I have no intentions or plans to even attempt, but I'm trying to learn it.

With Bane only being 10 months old, everything has been prey drive.

Not sure if this question is possible to answer, but when you do "know" your dog has reached the maturity to start defense/protection type training. I'm sure every dog is different. I would like to know how you guys/girls introduce your dog to defense type training. I'm sure it varies, but I'm interested in the different training techniques used.

Bane doesn't have high ball drive, but once a rag, bite pillow, or tug comes out, his drive amps up big time. He will play with the ball a little, but I would consider it low ball drive. Totally opposite when doing bitework training and using a tug or bite pillow. FYI. His bloodline is WGSL/WL. To date, no issue. Environmentally sound, and confident. I guess time will tell how strong his nerves are or the amount of stress he can handle.

This was a great topic to read.
06-02-2014 07:43 AM
GSDElsa
Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
Alright, I see what you're getting at. The table was rectangular, about 5 ft by 3 ft and off the ground. Do you think its a different stress since the dog knew there was only one way in/out and also only one way the helper could come at the dog? I mean, it definitely put my boy in a more "defensive" state of mind at that point.
Hi, haven't posted in forever here! But it seems like there is discussion on this type of table. Vit Glisnik uses the larger, rectangular tables often (not sure of who else). The one we built for when he comes to our club, however, is more like 5' x 8' or so? I can't remember the exact specs.

He uses it (and I guess I can't say how others do) more like a combo of the round and square tables. A lot for encouraging strong barking while the handler is in the picture (handler is on table with dog).

Sorry if this was discussed later in the thread, I was just skimming this and saw there was discussion about this type of table. If I think of it after work, I'll see if I have a good picture of a dog being worked on it. If you're FB friends with me and are curious, I have a Vit seminar photo folder and there might be one in there...
05-28-2014 03:20 PM
hunterisgreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vandal View Post
This is why "I" would not work a puppy on a table.

Most young pups only have some prey or play drive development. When you amplify it, that's what you get...much more of it than you might want. The whip....contrary to popular belief, was always more about enhancing prey drive than used to threaten with. That said, even if you do use it to threaten, a dog without the aggression that comes with maturity....will channel all of whatever you are doing, into the sleeve.

When you make a bunch of noise , excitement and activity and then hand the puppy a sleeve and it all stops, you teach him that is how he makes it all stop...by biting the prey. While this is behind most of the way we train now, if you are the handler doing the work, that aspect becomes even more pronounced since you are, ( or should be) holding a certain rank in your puppies eyes. Even if it is a helper, a pup cannot respond with aggression because.... he is a puppy... and it has not developed yet. As a result, all that work you are doing gets channeled right into the sleeve and that becomes all it is about...the sleeve....not the man...just the sleeve. Similar to a force retrieve where the hectic, uncomfortable things end as soon as the dog holds the dumbbell tightly.

I might play with my pup once or twice to see how much prey drive and interest in biting he has, and then I quit until he is older. Of course, it depends on how quickly each pup matures, but mine don't get a chance to bite until over a year of age. Barking, yes....if they are showing the right kind of barking. The dog I am working now matured very quickly. So, he was watching the training starting at eight months of age. Also, I rarely have a good or experienced helper to work with...there just aren't that many. So, mostly I am training helpers at the same time I am training my dog. I have to minimize the mistakes and the older dog is more able to handle that.

Even if I did have a good helper, I would still wait. The results are so much better. People talk about how you can work the dog more serious later on after you play with him for a year.....sure....good luck finding a helper that can do that kind of work and pull the dog out of prey behavior that has been constantly reinforced since a very early age. Because some helpers lack presence, they will resort to using pain or trying to whip the dog into looking at them. They try to fight the behavior that has been ingrained into the dog to look at and get that sleeve at all costs vs what you can do with an older dog from the get go....teaching the dog he can control the helper with his aggression and fight drive...(which is now present in the dog because he is more mature).

The idea that you teach a puppy to bite, bark and strike on a table, speaks to not really understanding where all those behaviors come from. It is not solely prey drive that brings strong serious barking, hard, fast strikes and full, hard grips and fight. It is first genetics and second, helper work that uses all the drives a dog should actually be using in protection .
Started training jäger at 4 so we never had to ponder that. I agree though
05-28-2014 03:12 PM
Vandal This is why "I" would not work a puppy on a table.

Most young pups only have some prey or play drive development. When you amplify it, that's what you get...much more of it than you might want. The whip....contrary to popular belief, was always more about enhancing prey drive than used to threaten with. That said, even if you do use it to threaten, a dog without the aggression that comes with maturity....will channel all of whatever you are doing, into the sleeve.

When you make a bunch of noise , excitement and activity and then hand the puppy a sleeve and it all stops, you teach him that is how he makes it all stop...by biting the prey. While this is behind most of the way we train now, if you are the handler doing the work, that aspect becomes even more pronounced since you are, ( or should be) holding a certain rank in your puppies eyes. Even if it is a helper, a pup cannot respond with aggression because.... he is a puppy... and it has not developed yet. As a result, all that work you are doing gets channeled right into the sleeve and that becomes all it is about...the sleeve....not the man...just the sleeve. Similar to a force retrieve where the hectic, uncomfortable things end as soon as the dog holds the dumbbell tightly.

I might play with my pup once or twice to see how much prey drive and interest in biting he has, and then I quit until he is older. Of course, it depends on how quickly each pup matures, but mine don't get a chance to bite until over a year of age. Barking, yes....if they are showing the right kind of barking. The dog I am working now matured very quickly. So, he was watching the training starting at eight months of age. Also, I rarely have a good or experienced helper to work with...there just aren't that many. So, mostly I am training helpers at the same time I am training my dog. I have to minimize the mistakes and the older dog is more able to handle that.

Even if I did have a good helper, I would still wait. The results are so much better. People talk about how you can work the dog more serious later on after you play with him for a year.....sure....good luck finding a helper that can do that kind of work and pull the dog out of prey behavior that has been constantly reinforced since a very early age. Because some helpers lack presence, they will resort to using pain or trying to whip the dog into looking at them. They try to fight the behavior that has been ingrained into the dog to look at and get that sleeve at all costs vs what you can do with an older dog from the get go....teaching the dog he can control the helper with his aggression and fight drive...(which is now present in the dog because he is more mature).

The idea that you teach a puppy to bite, bark and strike on a table, speaks to not really understanding where all those behaviors come from. It is not solely prey drive that brings strong serious barking, hard, fast strikes and full, hard grips and fight. It is first genetics and second, helper work that uses all the drives a dog should actually be using in protection .
05-28-2014 12:01 PM
hunterisgreat
Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
So...same stuff that can happen on a field if the helper pushes the dog too far anyways...
Yeah just amplified.
05-28-2014 11:35 AM
bill Agree Hunter" a good helper has to be able too read the dog" be a good actor" and remember why they are there to build up the dog" not show how brave they are!Macho men with no brains" all attitude" worthless! Macho men and women with brains willing to listen and learn" priceless! J.m.o. Bill

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05-28-2014 11:35 AM
lhczth
Quote:
Not teach anything just look scary while on a table.
This is what I see the most. Or table work done on young dogs as a crutch instead of waiting for the dog to be old enough to bring more naturally to the work.
05-28-2014 11:30 AM
martemchik
Quote:
Originally Posted by hunterisgreat View Post
Push to hard and the dog will start to crack.
Not teach anything just look scary while on a table.
Same problems that happen to folks when they have more stress than they can handle
So...same stuff that can happen on a field if the helper pushes the dog too far anyways...
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