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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-23-2014 11:49 PM
Colie CVT Glad to hear that everything went well! Puppies are pretty resilient creatures! It is hard to keep them from being active lol. My female was spayed when she was 3.5 years old and she drove me SO crazy that I let her spend the last few days of her confinement at my work so that I didn't have to deal with her howling and digging at the kennel all night lol! She was quiet there (least back then anyway lol).

She is beautiful!
04-23-2014 10:51 PM
my boy diesel glad it went so well
what a cutie!
04-23-2014 10:49 PM
njk Just an update, they did a blood test and the vet contacted us and said everything looked fine and she can't see any reason not to go ahead with the surgery. So my partner and I made the decision to go ahead, and she did just fine. We were told she would probably be a bit drowsy when we picked her up, but we know our girl too well and sure enough she was crazy active. The vet said she pretty much bounced right out of surgery and wanted to play. We were told no playing though, so I've had to put up with her crazy biting because I'm ignoring her. She hasn't bitten in a long time so I was sad to see the return of her teeth lol anyway, the photo below is when we got her home with her cone of shame.

Thanks so much for the info Colie, and thanks everyone for the replies and help! it's been a stressful week, that's for sure.

04-19-2014 12:05 AM
Colie CVT Even being as careful as you can, sadly the pressure can change super quickly. Instabilities in the cervical spine are really scary with the brain stem. We actually have had a few dogs who luxated their first two vertebrae! Talk about long roads to recovery but dogs are pretty awesome.

That is a terrible thing about those poor people and their boxer. Unfortunately, we end up having to figure things like that out, and take care of them in the end for their owners. I hope those people are okay. I am glad that they will give you copies of the record and that you will get to speak with the vet. It could be that the assistant simply doesn't understand what happened or could have happened. I tend to be the kind who always asks why, looks into what could have been and I probably drive some of the vets I work with nuts in wanting to understand things lol.

Ace used to be a really popular thing for a pre-medication, but honestly I don't tend to like it. It is a really powerful sedative in its own right. We tend to use it in very tiny doses for patients who are just completely out of it, and any animal who has seizures should avoid it. It will lower the threshold and tends to make it easier to happen. It is often used for sedating after procedures or around fireworks, but you definitely need to be careful with it if you don't know how your pet reacted to it.

I love talking about veterinary medicine. Which is good since I have actually done some teaching jobs in the past, and where I work we are at teaching facility as much as a hospital. Not as high tech as some of the universities, but we do have some pretty nifty things. ^_^
04-18-2014 07:49 PM
Chip18 I did see this mentioned in regards to "all" herder breeds don't know but I do know that as a (former) Boxer owner (my girl passed in Nov). I made sure that they did not use Ace on her, when she had to be put under,period, end of discussion!

American Boxer Club: Warning on Acepromazine
04-18-2014 07:38 PM
njk Mikko, it's fine anyone can ask anything they like in here, especially if there's someone in the know like Colie!

Unfortunately I didn't get to speak to the Vet, though understandable why - a lady in town has been looking for her beautiful white boxer pup for a few days now and the body had just been bought in by the ranger so the Vet was busy with him, contacting the owner, and trying to determine cause of death before the Easter weekend break. Very sad. She (the assistant) did tell me though that we can get a print out of all the details and such for our private records, as many of you have recommended we do so for future Vets, and she told me they will be doing tests when I bring her in on Wednesday and the Vet may not even go ahead with the surgery at that time. She said the Vet will discuss it with me next week. She restated they wouldn't be using the same anesthetic when they do go ahead with the procedure.

So yeah and while we still do want her spayed at around 6 months, if we have to wait longer to be sure then we definitely will. My younger sister said she forgot about dogs going through heat until her pup went through it. Like you SDG she said it wasn't that bad, but she did spay asap after that.

Thanks again everyone! I will keep you updated on what happens!
04-18-2014 10:32 AM
I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colie CVT View Post
Wobblers is an instability in the cervical spine, which is where some really important parts of the brain ends in. It kind of seems that something with pressure around the brain or probably more importantly the brain stem can cause trouble under anesthesia. That would potentially be another case to see what it was that could have caused it. We have one protocol that we use with really critical patients that tends to work. I have a feeling it was potentially in the movement rather than in the drugs being used in that case, just given that you are dealing with the cervical spine region.

Scariest moment I had early on in my career was the first time that I did anesthesia on a dog who was getting a ventral slot (basically opposite side of a dorsal laminectomy which is what I believe Wobblers dogs get). When I was weaning her off of the positive pressure ventilator, I realized quickly that something was wrong. When she tried to breathe, nothing happened. She literally looked like a fish out of water. I immediately turned the anesthesia back on and started breathing for her, calling for the surgeon. There is a side effect to that surgery where they wake up without the ability to breathe. Her disk spot was higher in her neck, and it took a few huge doses of steroids, time and we actually did a tracheostomy on her in order to let her wake up, but use the surgical ventilator (since then we have one for critical care) to breathe for her.

It was absolutely terrifying to have happen and I had to go see her the day after to ensure myself she was okay. I don't think I had cried tears of joy quite so much as I did that day when she wriggled her way into my arms.

I would figure out what the drugs used were and more importantly how events unfolded. It is better to be safe than sorry in most cases, but you have to look at the patient as a whole as well as what was happening in the patient. It can often give you clues to what was happening. Not all places keep the best of notes however for that kind of thing. I think I tend to overdo it some days with mine lol.
Ah yes, thank you! I remember the Dr. saying something about the positioning being a possible cause - it was such a long, horrible day I had forgotten about that. And I didn't quite understand how the positioning would have cause it. But what you said makes sense. I hope I never have to make a decision about having to out him under anesthesia again...I will find out more about the drugs and everything. I'd imagine that they keep excellent notes (being a vet school hospital). Thank you again. oh by the way, they do ventral slot surgeries for many Wobblers dogs now, apparently there are over 20 types of surgeries for it!


OP - sorry to hijack your thread temporarily. Have you found anything out from the vet yet?
04-18-2014 12:35 AM
Colie CVT Wobblers is an instability in the cervical spine, which is where some really important parts of the brain ends in. It kind of seems that something with pressure around the brain or probably more importantly the brain stem can cause trouble under anesthesia. That would potentially be another case to see what it was that could have caused it. We have one protocol that we use with really critical patients that tends to work. I have a feeling it was potentially in the movement rather than in the drugs being used in that case, just given that you are dealing with the cervical spine region.

Scariest moment I had early on in my career was the first time that I did anesthesia on a dog who was getting a ventral slot (basically opposite side of a dorsal laminectomy which is what I believe Wobblers dogs get). When I was weaning her off of the positive pressure ventilator, I realized quickly that something was wrong. When she tried to breathe, nothing happened. She literally looked like a fish out of water. I immediately turned the anesthesia back on and started breathing for her, calling for the surgeon. There is a side effect to that surgery where they wake up without the ability to breathe. Her disk spot was higher in her neck, and it took a few huge doses of steroids, time and we actually did a tracheostomy on her in order to let her wake up, but use the surgical ventilator (since then we have one for critical care) to breathe for her.

It was absolutely terrifying to have happen and I had to go see her the day after to ensure myself she was okay. I don't think I had cried tears of joy quite so much as I did that day when she wriggled her way into my arms.

I would figure out what the drugs used were and more importantly how events unfolded. It is better to be safe than sorry in most cases, but you have to look at the patient as a whole as well as what was happening in the patient. It can often give you clues to what was happening. Not all places keep the best of notes however for that kind of thing. I think I tend to overdo it some days with mine lol.
04-17-2014 10:23 PM
my boy diesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanKBBMMMAAN View Post
We have not been to the OP's house, know how they manage their dog, and then how their neighbors in the rural area in which they live manage theirs. Some people are comfortable making a choice to spay or neuter earlier than others and have reasons to do so. They could potentially live someplace like Hazzard, KY where they put down more dogs in a day than a similar population sized place in NYS does in a year - partly because of wide roaming intact animals. Regardless, some think there are good reasons to do so and not as definitive as the statement above would lead you to believe.

Some other information here - pediatric (which 5 months I believe is outside that range) Early Spay & Neuter

I am always surprised when I see linking to the Mercola site (I see it a lot here). I would think that it would be indicative of a less than science based point of view as it's under that site's umbrella. But whatever, people reading can evaluate.

I do agree that there is time - there is no other way to do it - to get the needed information to make this a safe procedure.
Great info!!
I am so tired of everyone jumping on the OMG do not spay or neuter your dog!! bandwagon!
that is not what this thread is about
not to mention that while rare it is not unheard of for any dog of any age to react badly to anesthesia
although in our case bradycardia (where the HR slows too much) was more of a culprit than speeding hr
good luck with the preanesthesia tests op
at least your vet stopped the surgery and did not go through with it
that is a good sign
04-17-2014 09:53 PM
I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colie CVT View Post
There are many things that could happen. What was the reason for your dog to have the MRI? Depending on the condition that could be a factor in it. Other things could be as simple as he got too deep under anesthesia (it is often referred to as controlled death) and his heart slowed considerably because of it. Things with the spinal cord seem to have different anesthesia than the average patient.

Each animal is an individual. We tend to have protocols for things, but it isn't really one size fits all. The only random cardiac arrest I heard of happening where I work was a dog who was getting a hemilaminectomy. One moment he was fine, the next his heart just stopped. They got it going again, but they obviously were nervous about it. It is why you have to really pay attention to the patient and what is happening at every stage of the game.

I could probably give some ideas, but knowing why the dog needed an MRI could help direct it more.


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Thanks! The MRI was for Wobblers disease (to determine where he needs discs put in). They told me that he was fine one minute and the next he arrested it was awful. They won't put him under at all now unless the risk of not doing surgery becomes greater than the risk of anesthesia, which for me is probably never...
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