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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-21-2014 10:46 PM
Sri Thanks very much for all the advice everyone.


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04-17-2014 01:54 PM
blackshep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saxony View Post
I do both tracking and nosework with my dogs and here is what I will add for your consideration. Yes they are different in terms of the activity, how the dog works, what they are searching for...also they differ in resource needs.

Tracking: great outdoor activity. Needs: time (tracks are 1-2 hours aged), wide open safe places to track, 40' line, flags, maps, timer to age tracks and time runs, partner to lay blind tracks, harness, dog, ability to understand wind direction, treats :-)

Nosework: great indoor and outdoor activity. Needs: containers, tins, odors, indoor and exterior search spaces, vehicles, harness, leash, articles, clipboard, dog, treats :-)

At the basic level I found nosework to fit better with my lifestyle. It takes time to track, and for me added time to get there since I don't live near open areas. I like nose work because I can do it anywhere, anytime. I love tracking too but where I live, it's snowing right now. Tracking is something I can enjoy 1/2 the year and it's hard to coordinate a friend to track with plus it takes a good four hours, for me, with transit time.

I bet you will enjoy them both. My $.02 - If you do pursue nosework, one resource to consider is NACSW - they have a list of certified instructors on their site. This is such a fast growing sport/ in demand it seems like everyone is popping up to offer it, so make sure your instructor knows what they are doing. And if you pursue tracking- take a class or join a club that way you will have people to track with. Have fun!
This is great info!! I agree, the nosework is easy to fit in a few searches before bedtime etc, and can be done in all weather.

I think I'll have tracking as a summer activity and nosework can keep us going through the long, cold winter!
04-17-2014 11:29 AM
Liesje
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slamdunc View Post
I really don't think ground level hides or even buried hides will effect article indication at all. When a dog is doing tracking it is trained to indicate on articles on the track with fresh human odor. These articles should obviously contain the odor of the track layer only. The key to article indication, or even article searching is the association with recent human odor.

In detection work, such as narcotics, explosives or nose work the dog is trained to find a particular odor and to ignore other odors. The dog learns to ignore human odor, or should on substances and focus on the target odor. The rituals for tracking and detection work, the commands and the procedures are completely different. You should have no issues with buried finds, low finds, high finds, etc. Actually, training varied finds is good and conflict training is even better.

The indication in IPO tracking, usually a down with the article between the front legs should be very different than the indication the dog gives when doing detection work. With the detection work you can train either a passive alert or an active (aggressive) alert for a final response. These should not conflict with article indication at all. Remember, the actual alert is not the trained response but the breathing, body language and behavioral changes the dog has before the trained response.

JMO FWIW
Thanks Jim, I figured I was worrying about nothing. Well, another reason I told my instructor not to do it is that it was a NACSW class and I was getting sick of the instructor insisting on constantly pairing food with hids so when we moved to ground or buried hides I just told her to stop doing that and used IPO tracking as an excuse. Not sure if you are familiar with the NACSW training, but they basically are known to string things along fooooooorever. They pair odor with food like for a YEAR if they can (and this is after putting treats in boxes for months before even introducing the odor). My dog has very high food drive and personally, I find the odors more of a distraction. For an adult dog with good drive, some scent experience (having titled in Schutzhund and SDA, both involving tracking), no environmental sensitivities which would require food/more motivation to keep working, and a dog very used to "freeshaping" style of training (which I use for trick training and some of my obedience and other sport stuff), I found that the pairing food and odor was not a good method for us. I have an acquaintance who owns a littermate to my dog who has done nosework for quite a while (I think her dog is NW2, she also does other venues of competitive obedience) and she sent me a write-up of the method she uses which is more the way Denise Fenzi teaches and that made more sense to me and clicked better with my dog. I've also gone to see Andrew Ramsey (and will again in June) to observe some of his demos and workshops and like his style over the NACSW style, but I think the NACSW is geared more toward pet dogs and pet people (by that I mean people that don't have experience training anything other than basic obedience) and dogs that have "issues" and need to work more slowly with more food motivation.

My dog's nosework indication is not really a trained behavior like a sit or down, but more how I read his response (or lack of response if he "clears" a vehicle or area as not having the scent). He will stiffen, the tail will start to wag more quickly, and then often he does thing thing where he is flicking his head, alternating between a nose-touch on the odor and looking back at me. When he goes that lock up with his body and then the tail wagging and head flicking, I call his indication. He does other things like down and sit but that has more to do with the location of the odor. If it's on or near the grown he will down like in IPO tracking but the other body language is there. If the odor is 3 feet off the ground he might sit. I don't really reinforce the sits or downs as the indication. In nosework at higher levels the dog must indicate closely, like within half an inch (actually in our NW1 trial during the interior search after I called the indication I was asked by the judge to point directly to the spot with the scent) so I like that he attempts to touch his nose on the scent or as close as he possibly can to whatever is containing the scent.

I am very new to nosework and was originally more worried about it messing up tracking since that's my dog's best phase, but now I'm not worried and also have not been doing IPO for almost a year and may never trial him again. I'd LOVE to do an FH/FH2 but simply don't have the space available to train to the level I think he could score. Like the poster above me explained, nosework fits better with our more urban lifestyle and is something I can do year-round.
04-16-2014 10:04 PM
Saxony I do both tracking and nosework with my dogs and here is what I will add for your consideration. Yes they are different in terms of the activity, how the dog works, what they are searching for...also they differ in resource needs.

Tracking: great outdoor activity. Needs: time (tracks are 1-2 hours aged), wide open safe places to track, 40' line, flags, maps, timer to age tracks and time runs, partner to lay blind tracks, harness, dog, ability to understand wind direction, treats :-)

Nosework: great indoor and outdoor activity. Needs: containers, tins, odors, indoor and exterior search spaces, vehicles, harness, leash, articles, clipboard, dog, treats :-)

At the basic level I found nosework to fit better with my lifestyle. It takes time to track, and for me added time to get there since I don't live near open areas. I like nose work because I can do it anywhere, anytime. I love tracking too but where I live, it's snowing right now. Tracking is something I can enjoy 1/2 the year and it's hard to coordinate a friend to track with plus it takes a good four hours, for me, with transit time.

I bet you will enjoy them both. My $.02 - If you do pursue nosework, one resource to consider is NACSW - they have a list of certified instructors on their site. This is such a fast growing sport/ in demand it seems like everyone is popping up to offer it, so make sure your instructor knows what they are doing. And if you pursue tracking- take a class or join a club that way you will have people to track with. Have fun!
04-15-2014 09:39 AM
blackshep
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJEtzel View Post
Tracking is following scent, not alerting to it, and the dogs (in IPO) cannot lift their heads to air scent like in nosework. It would conflict in this manner.
I think that part will be ok, police K9's do both, after all. My dog will sometimes track my trainer back to the scent he hid. lol She's a cheater. There's a few people in my scent detection class who do both, and it doesn't seem to create any problems for them, so I think it will be ok.

My dog has a bad hip, so I'm looking for another activity for her to do that won't be too hard on her joints.

I'm excited to try it! I'm going to use a different command than my scent detection one, to help avoid confusion on how to search, but I also think the lack of objects to search (no vehicles, containers or furniture) will help to avoid confusion.

She seems to be a natural tracker, she is always wanting to follow her nose if she finds an interesting scent trail on walks.
04-14-2014 04:33 PM
I_LOVE_MY_MIKKO
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshep View Post
My dog is doing nosework and is trained to down when she finds the scent. Will this create a conflict with tracking?
It's okay for a dog to down on a scent article in AKC tracking.
04-14-2014 04:07 PM
DJEtzel
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshep View Post
My dog is doing nosework and is trained to down when she finds the scent. Will this create a conflict with tracking?
Tracking is following scent, not alerting to it, and the dogs (in IPO) cannot lift their heads to air scent like in nosework. It would conflict in this manner.
04-14-2014 01:43 PM
blackshep My dog is doing nosework and is trained to down when she finds the scent. Will this create a conflict with tracking?
04-12-2014 03:12 PM
Slamdunc
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Doing IPO tracking and nosework is not the end of the world nor rocket science, really no different than dogs that do agility *and* flyball, or dogs that do IPO protection *and* SDA (all of which Nikon also does or has done). Really the only consideration I have because he does both is that I don't allow my nosework instructor to bait ground level hides because obviously I don't ever want him touching IPO articles, but even then I'm not sure if it would be a big deal.

I really don't think ground level hides or even buried hides will effect article indication at all. When a dog is doing tracking it is trained to indicate on articles on the track with fresh human odor. These articles should obviously contain the odor of the track layer only. The key to article indication, or even article searching is the association with recent human odor.

In detection work, such as narcotics, explosives or nose work the dog is trained to find a particular odor and to ignore other odors. The dog learns to ignore human odor, or should on substances and focus on the target odor. The rituals for tracking and detection work, the commands and the procedures are completely different. You should have no issues with buried finds, low finds, high finds, etc. Actually, training varied finds is good and conflict training is even better.

The indication in IPO tracking, usually a down with the article between the front legs should be very different than the indication the dog gives when doing detection work. With the detection work you can train either a passive alert or an active (aggressive) alert for a final response. These should not conflict with article indication at all. Remember, the actual alert is not the trained response but the breathing, body language and behavioral changes the dog has before the trained response.

JMO FWIW
04-11-2014 07:03 PM
Liesje Doing IPO tracking and nosework is not the end of the world nor rocket science, really no different than dogs that do agility *and* flyball, or dogs that do IPO protection *and* SDA (all of which Nikon also does or has done). Really the only consideration I have because he does both is that I don't allow my nosework instructor to bait ground level hides because obviously I don't ever want him touching IPO articles, but even then I'm not sure if it would be a big deal.
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