|Topic Review (Newest First)|
|04-10-2014 08:22 PM|
All very fascinating!
Does anyone have a good link to explain how to read the linebreeding notes on Pedigree Database? I'm a total newbie and I've found lots of good sites that explain linebreeding vs inbreeding but I can't seem to find one that would help me make sense of exactly what is in our pup's lineage.
His sire: VA1 NSV NV11 NUCH Rothco's Ashan Kahn
His dam: V1 Nutella dei Precision
|04-10-2014 07:44 PM|
|Liesje||To me "inbreeding" = parent to child or siblings breeding. Really all GSDs are going to be "linebred", it just depends on how many generations back you are interested. Just because the Pedigree Database shows 5 generations by default doesn't mean someone like me isn't looking 6, 7, 8.... generations back, or say there's a dog in the 6th generation that himself was inbred or heavily linebred, I'm interested in that. Just because there may be "no common ancestry" in 5 generations doesn't mean the genetics beyond 5 generations aren't coming into play.|
|04-10-2014 07:39 PM|
|carmspack||nice female .|
|04-10-2014 07:30 PM|
I have a bitch that is 12 1/2 years old. You can look at her pedigree and see that she is linebred, but she is very healthy - eats well, jumps into the van, is starting to have sight and hearing difficulties but manages quite well. Linebreeding is not the devil -- breeding all depends on the dogs that are bred.
CH Andaka-Zederland's Voodoo Doll
|04-10-2014 10:16 AM|
It is very very very hard to avoid line breeding in workinglines, and nearly impossible in showlines.....One big problem is popularity of <whichever> winning males at the highest levels - some of these dogs can get hundreds of covers/breedings - maybe near a thousand in their lifetimes...that trickles down into nearly impossible to avoid the dog. Some line breeding is going to be evident in almost every single litter, if not, then there will be backmassing in the 7-10th generations.
Personally, coming from a horse background, where genetic problems have been known to be caused from heavy inbreeding/linebreeding (HYPP - Impressive!) I am somewhat careful on how much of a good thing is too much. The WLs are boxed up into a corner with certain dogs. Even finding a stud dog without certain lines/dogs is nearly impossible without going to Czech and DDR dogs....we had some Belgian lines without overly popular dogs - but alas, the one male got used heavily in Germany then and the most popular results do have the overly used dogs.
If the breeder does a breeding knowing what the linebred dog is known for passing, that is not always a bad thing. Unfortunately, I have found that too many just identify the dog as being a BSP/WUSV dog or sire.
|04-10-2014 09:41 AM|
Line breeding and inbreeding are NOT inherently the same. If you have no true understanding of line breeding, combined with proper health and temperament tests and knowledge of the pedigree and past dogs that ALL good breeders should have, then you have no business passing judgment on the practice. Breeding a dog to a "relative" 5-6 generations back offers more than enough genetic diversity vs. Breeding brother to sister or mother to son.
That being said, in the show line world you're usually line breeding to lock in a certain confirmation point as working ability is rarely tested amongst top SL dogs. So this is where I fear *hidden* genes that can greatly affect temperament are more likely to pop up, as well as health.
Although you can't say it couldn't be the same in the working world, where more and more dogs are simply bred tor have higher and higher prey drive to win a sport, and now where most schutzhund dogs would fail horribly at being true working or PP dogs
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|04-10-2014 01:27 AM|
Originally Posted by RubyTuesday View Post
|04-10-2014 01:18 AM|
|04-08-2014 03:28 PM|
Linebreeding is here to stay but it s/b done with extreme care, a deep knowledge of the lines involved, & a clear understanding of the very real risks & drawbacks. Inbreeding or linebreeding for health is usually misdirected. Deleterious genes are often 'hidden', such as rare recessives or those in polygenetic conditions & only make themselves known when inherited from both parents. As gene pools shrink that happens more & more frequently. In the dog world 'rare recessive' is practically an oxymoron. For example, eliminating HD while increasing the occurence of EPI, cancers, allergies, or heart conditions wouldn't be a win.
Overall health, vigor & longevity are best served by genetic diversity. Linebreeding produces more consistent dogs & breeds would hardly exist without it, but increasingly the dogs are consistently less healthy, less robust & dying younger. Way, way, wayyy too often this is done in the pursuit of 'pretty' although it's rarely stated so baldly.
|03-31-2014 12:09 PM|
see iceberg breeders http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum...-breeders.html
Elliot Humphrey , part designer of the Fortunate Fields guide dog breeding program , in a later article said that without variety you can have no improvement.
Mirroring that statement van Oirschot "we got uniformity in genetic makeup and that means loss of genetic variation" ..... "Hochzucht breeding became a matter of copying the successful formula of the successful breeders; doing more of the same. The demand for type was a demand for the predominant type set by a world famous kennel "von der Wienerau". To deviate from this type was to deviate from the Hochzucht breeding. Hochzucht developed into a one way street."
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