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Thread: Why does a breeders continue to breed sire that produces Dysplasia Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-02-2014 01:57 PM
carmspack
Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
Yeah, the statement sounds bad. But sadly, I've met enough breeders that would pass the "smell test" of this forum, and also breeders that have been recommended by this forum, and breeder that participate on this forum, that don't exactly do what you've said. They do hide those things.

I know the breeders "care" but they don't automatically pull the dogs from breeding, and they'll find any way possible to still include that dog or bitch in the breeding program. Many times their reasons just sound like excuses and its not that I'm not understanding, I just also understand that many times its the economics that drive those types of decisions.

After investing thousands into a dog, that all the sudden is producing a more than acceptable amount of HD pups, you're going to figure out a way to spin it that its not that dog's fault and they will continue collecting stud fees.

I'm also not saying that all breeders are like this, but I have met enough, heard enough stories, about breeders who people think the world of and yet these types of situations go on behind the scenes.

what ??

most breeders that I know agonize about making the right decisions . How with hips for example, something which is not even a direct Mendellian mode of inheritance , can you have absolute control over the out come .

I had a "sport" home for one of my last pups . The mother was x rayed, the father was x rayed, their ancestors similar "a" and ofa certs. The pup was a repeat litter , where that progeny was old enough to have been x rayed and showed good results.

I could guarantee what I was prepared to do in case "this" pup did not x ray to satisfaction --- money back --- but I could not guarantee that he would not have a problem. No one could do that . I had done every thing possible to ensure a good outcome .

This guy was so anxious -- I told him I could grow the pup out to an age where he could be x ray examined , and he would pay a modest amount extra for my time, expenses, effort . Or he should buy an adult dog , x rayed and clear , which he was not interested in because he wanted his child to "grow up" with the dog .

Hands are tied. He told me that he had made a mistake in the past and bought a dog from a byb and he did not want to go through that again. He was so anxious I told him perhaps a GSD was not for him at all.
Besides they do not have the worst record for poor hip production .
04-02-2014 01:27 PM
martemchik
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Wild View Post
Maybe it's just the wording, but this statement really rubs me the wrong way. The idea that breeders *don't care* is ludicrious. And IMO producing the occasional dog with a problem shouldn't hurt their reputation in the least provided that they honor whatever contract/warranty they provide and are supportive of the owners, and acknowledge those occasional problems rather than hide them.

We are dealing with living creatures, not widgets made in a factory. There are no guarantees. The only way a breeder is going to produce 100% sound dogs is to not produce ANY dogs because it just doesn't work that way.

As for pedigrees, these are probably the single most important piece of the puzzle when it comes to breeding for health as these provide the genetic blueprint of the dog and if a breeder tracks not just the direct ancestors and their individual health tests but also those of other relatives and actual production, looking at breadth of pedigree and not just depth, which any good breeder does this is where the majority of information comes from.
Yeah, the statement sounds bad. But sadly, I've met enough breeders that would pass the "smell test" of this forum, and also breeders that have been recommended by this forum, and breeder that participate on this forum, that don't exactly do what you've said. They do hide those things.

I know the breeders "care" but they don't automatically pull the dogs from breeding, and they'll find any way possible to still include that dog or bitch in the breeding program. Many times their reasons just sound like excuses and its not that I'm not understanding, I just also understand that many times its the economics that drive those types of decisions.

After investing thousands into a dog, that all the sudden is producing a more than acceptable amount of HD pups, you're going to figure out a way to spin it that its not that dog's fault and they will continue collecting stud fees.

I'm also not saying that all breeders are like this, but I have met enough, heard enough stories, about breeders who people think the world of and yet these types of situations go on behind the scenes.
04-02-2014 01:06 PM
blackshep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Wild View Post
As for pedigrees, these are probably the single most important piece of the puzzle when it comes to breeding for health as these provide the genetic blueprint of the dog and if a breeder tracks not just the direct ancestors and their individual health tests but also those of other relatives and actual production, looking at breadth of pedigree and not just depth, which any good breeder does this is where the majority of information comes from.
I guess it seems to some people, that the pedigrees mean more to the performance side than the health, if the heath problems are being overlooked, and the dog continues to be bred.

I realize it's a complicated issue, don't misunderstand me.

But it seems to me that a dog who produces weak dogs who don't measure up for IPO is more likely to stop being bred, than one who produces a lot of health issues. It seems like people put more weight on performance than health.

Granted, I'm feeling a bit cynical at the moment. But that's how it seems to me, based on this thread and my own (limited) experiences.
04-02-2014 12:40 PM
Chris Wild
Quote:
Originally Posted by martemchik View Post
At the end of the day, most breeders will think about the big picture and could care less that 1 or 2 puppy owners are going to have to deal with the HD, its part of the risk we take as dog owners IMO.

Maybe it's just the wording, but this statement really rubs me the wrong way. The idea that breeders *don't care* is ludicrious. And IMO producing the occasional dog with a problem shouldn't hurt their reputation in the least provided that they honor whatever contract/warranty they provide and are supportive of the owners, and acknowledge those occasional problems rather than hide them.

We are dealing with living creatures, not widgets made in a factory. There are no guarantees. The only way a breeder is going to produce 100% sound dogs is to not produce ANY dogs because it just doesn't work that way.

As for pedigrees, these are probably the single most important piece of the puzzle when it comes to breeding for health as these provide the genetic blueprint of the dog and if a breeder tracks not just the direct ancestors and their individual health tests but also those of other relatives and actual production, looking at breadth of pedigree and not just depth, which any good breeder does this is where the majority of information comes from.
04-02-2014 12:00 PM
blackshep I think we can agree on that point!
04-02-2014 11:45 AM
martemchik
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackshep View Post
But you can't tell a person's morals from a pedigree. She's a lovely person, but has blinders on with her dog, she adores him. I'm talking about the stud dog owner BTW, not the breeder I got my dog from. The breeder has retired that female from breeding, this was that dogs only problem litter, she had a total of 3. She's already offered me another dog when she does another breeding, but I don't necessarily want a 2nd one.
That's the point...the only way you know is to get to know the person on a deeper level than just business. You can never forget that you're a customer and they're a business owner. They produce a product.

I know of two breeders who have bred two OFA Excellent dogs and the pups have ended up with elbow dysplasia. Both breeders are blaming the owner of the other dog. Of course the breeding will never be repeated, but because only people that might know the puppy owners know of the issue, both breeders will end up keeping their reputations.

The part about pedigrees...this forum, and many people, put WAY TOO MUCH weight on a pedigree. They see something in a pedigree, and they want it in their program. If they end up increasing the risk of HD, they'll claim to fix that with a different dog in the next generation. At the end of the day, most breeders will think about the big picture and could care less that 1 or 2 puppy owners are going to have to deal with the HD, its part of the risk we take as dog owners IMO. Like its been stated by breeders on this thread...production of HD by a dam or a sire will not automatically cull them from the breeding pool depending on the pedigree and what else it has to offer. Where as a dog with a weaker pedigree, will pretty much be culled from the pool before its born even though it might check out, title, ect.

The sad thing is, the more I get involved in the breed, and the more I start finding out about breeders, the more political it gets and the more it just upsets you. The truth is, your dream of a good flyball dog is exactly the way you should be thinking, focus on that one dog and that sport, and just enjoy yourself. There is no reason to worry about what other people are doing, at the end of the day, there is nothing you can do about it.
04-02-2014 11:09 AM
blackshep
Quote:
Originally Posted by Liesje View Post
Can you share the x-rays in the hip forum when you have them done? There may be something else going on. If she's holding her legs at odd angles and you can actually see asymmetry, maybe she has a TV (transitional vertebra) that's really bad and throwing everything off. That can happen with or without HD (I know some more drastic TVs in dogs with certified good or better hips, and some dogs with more mild TV that also have HD).

As a stud owner, if a litter came back with 2 or more puppies having HD, I would not immediately cull the dog from breeding but definitely never breed to that bitch or those lines again.

Is your dog's sire in the ZW database?
But you can't tell a person's morals from a pedigree. She's a lovely person, but has blinders on with her dog, she adores him. I'm talking about the stud dog owner BTW, not the breeder I got my dog from. The breeder has retired that female from breeding, this was that dogs only problem litter, she had a total of 3. She's already offered me another dog when she does another breeding, but I don't necessarily want a 2nd one.

I'm not sure if he in the ZW database, I can't find him there. My pups litter was his first, so perhaps that is why? I just thought she'd be a little more cautious when breeding him again, and go a litter at a time for a few litters to see how they are.

When I take my dog in for her hip xrays I'm going to get them to take xrays of her back and neck as well. I did consider that it could be yelping from something else, but the chiropractor couldn't really find anything really all that off. I'm going to take her back to underwater treadmill to help get her fit for her xrays too.

I'll think about sharing the xrays, I don't generally post stuff like that publicly. I can maybe PM you?
04-02-2014 10:48 AM
martemchik The fact that the breeder/stud owner keeps doing that isn’t really a dog issue…it’s a person that doesn’t have the right morals. As a stud owner, you can put a bunch of titles on your dog, make him look fantastic, and if he has excellent hips, people are going to want to breed to him (especially if you’re good at marketing). I’ve noticed that when a “reputable breeder” uses a “reputable stud dog” and problems show up in a litter, they blame the other party. No one wants their dog connected to problems and so they’ll generally just put all the blame on the other party and then no one really knows the true story because it’s rare that the breeding gets repeated. If it does get repeated, shows how “reputable” that breeder probably is…
It’s really not that hard to find a good GSD. You just have to get out and watch the dogs work. What sucks about doing that, is that if you don’t have a dog to work, it’s usually not very practical to head out to a Schutzhund club every weekend for months just to figure out what dog you’d like and also develop an almost friendship/family like relationship with a potential breeder so that you can really understand what drives them morally and ethically. Or to make that kind of relationship with other people that will vouch that certain breeders have those high standards.
In regards to the horse/dog comparison. Horses are expensive, they aren’t really a “make a quick buck” type of animal and people that are looking for horses, are making a much larger investment, and therefore tend to be more knowledgeable than your average person looking for a dog. And even the best of breeders know this and can easily take advantage of those buyers.
04-02-2014 10:45 AM
Liesje Can you share the x-rays in the hip forum when you have them done? There may be something else going on. If she's holding her legs at odd angles and you can actually see asymmetry, maybe she has a TV (transitional vertebra) that's really bad and throwing everything off. That can happen with or without HD (I know some more drastic TVs in dogs with certified good or better hips, and some dogs with more mild TV that also have HD).

As a stud owner, if a litter came back with 2 or more puppies having HD, I would not immediately cull the dog from breeding but definitely never breed to that bitch or those lines again.

Is your dog's sire in the ZW database?
04-02-2014 10:19 AM
blackshep Are you talking about me? What mistakes did I make?

First off, the pup is guaranteed, I'm not sure why you think she isn't. That has nothing to do with the fact that I still have to deal with the ramifications of the HD. The breeder will give me my money back or replace the pup, I do not have to return the dog (although I have the option, but I won't do that), just to provide the OFA findings.

Second, I checked that the mother and father of the litter had passing hips, elbows, DM clear. I drove 3 hours each way to meet the mother and father - twice. I met two half siblings to my dog as well, I liked them all. I have kept her lean and not overdone it on the exercise while she was growing. What more should I have done?

Her hip wasn't good at her prelims at 10 months of age, but I knew something was wrong way before that, so it was not a surprise. She holds her leg out weirdly when she pees, she always has. I believe it has degraded considerably since then, but we will see.

I have to take her in for her official OFA hip xrays in another month. I think I can actually see a difference between her hips when I look at them from straight down her back, if that's possible. Maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.

She yelps when she does something like a little half rear, but overall gets around pretty well. She is sometimes reluctant to jump up on things, but mostly ok. I know she isn't going to pass her OFA, the breeder doesn't think so either.

2 other pups in the litter had really bad hips in their prelims.

I'm not sure why you think I did so much wrong, I think I did what any reasonable person would do to find a healthy pup.

My issue isn't so much that my dog has HD, but that such a high percentage of the pups in the litter did, and the owner of the stud dog has continued to breed him like crazy this year. That's the part that bothers me, that him producing such a high percentage of dysplastic pups in his first litter might be a reason to try a couple more breedings and see how they turn out, not stud him out like crazy without seeing if it's something he's passing on or not.
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