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Thread: Vaccinations?? Are we hurting these beautiful dogs?? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-23-2014 02:17 PM
llombardo Around here a lot of vets don't carry a three year distemper or rabies. In Illinois nothing can get you out of a rabies shot, even a titer test. I'm not comfortable with the law over riding the health in dogs. If it's about money they can still figure out a way to get that without having laws that state it's mandatory. I back off the distemper after they have the puppy shots and two three year shots. I'm debating in not giving my senior girl any shots going forward.
03-23-2014 01:23 PM
Baillif We really wont see it when those same drug companies push stuff through to emerging markets like China and India when they're less litigious and less careful about oversight. Laws and regulations in that area have sadly always been reactive. There usually needs to be a disaster before anyone bothers to do anything about it.
03-23-2014 01:16 PM
jocoyn Actually, reading one of the studies (and I have some clinical trials experience - and know my own company has reproduced and exceeded the original trials for certain diagnostic tests due to inadequate (in the opinion of our statisticians) statistics by the developer)

Reading this study led me to see that there were serious holes in the research of a very popular vaccine. Those documents are hard to access. This process approving new drugs was "streamlined" in the mid 90s to bring new drugs to market faster. This put less oversight in the hands of the FDA (more reliance on quality systems of the vendor and, trust me, you can buy ISO certification without embracing the system), and pushed safety concerns to post implementation using monitoring.....

The FDA protected US from thalidomide, while Europe and Canada suffered. I doubt we would see that level of protection anymore.

FDA Drug Approval Process under Scrutiny | Center for Effective Government
03-23-2014 12:22 PM
Baillif Coming from a clinical research background I'm naturally careful about causal analysis on a single event or anecdotal basis as it is silly. That being said there are some vets that are vaccinating at a higher rate than the drug companies recommend on the product investigational brochures. With that in mind you should read those IBs and refuse to vaccinate at a greater rate than they recommend no matter what your vet says.
03-23-2014 11:56 AM
jocoyn Experience with cats (of course they are different) and injection site sarcomas gives me concerns about the use of adjuvants in vaccines to improve immune response.

A lot of the newer recombinant vaccines have no adjuvant.

There is a cat vaccine that does not (rabies, 1 year only) because cats are very prone to injection site sarcomas. My daughter may be facing that with her own 7 year old cat right now. If I look at most of our cats go to 18-20 with no health problems and get very few vaccines, flea treaments, and kill and eat small furry things in addition to their normal food. Ours indoor/outdoor and hers indoor only.

I have all but given up on finding a local vet who gives a Merial lepto vaccine with no adjuvant and proven efficacy (something none of the others have done) and am just going to start calling vets to see if ANYONE local gives it. A teammate's dog just had a reaction to his lepto and he is NOT a little dog and it is a vaccine with short term only immunity.
03-23-2014 11:55 AM
gsdsar I work for a vet. I believe in vaccination for appropriate things. But I also believe that vaccines are not innocuous. Their whole modality to stress the immune system. So in animals with a predisposition to immune issue can have problems.

My dogs are probably over vaccinated to most peoples standards. They are all healthy, save for a few issues. Epilepsy in one. But her breed is predisposed. So I can't blame vaccines. One had Hemangiosarcoma, again a breed disposition. No allergies. In any of my dogs. No autoimmune problems.

But that does not mean anything, that is my experience. Personally I think that dogs are having a whole host of medical issues, we see more weird things now then when I started in this field. Is it because of better medical care? Are animals living longer and through issues that 20 years ago they would not? Is the fact that the average age is higher mean we see more cancer? Who knows.

I wish you luck with your dog. Benadryl does not work on many animals, but there are other antihistamines you can try.


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03-23-2014 11:43 AM
Kaimeju It seems more likely to me that it's genetic. I did have a bichon that died of canine thrombocytopenia after being heavily vaccinated and then boarded, but the breed is predisposed to it so I don't think it was just the vaccines.

Another thing I would like to point out is that people tend to blame things that are common to their experience, regardless of whether a causal effect is likely. Well, since vaccines are pretty much required, people whose dogs have similar problems are going to talk and say things like, "Hey, didn't her symptoms get worse after those booster shots?" And of course because of sheer numbers you're going to get enough anecdotal evidence that it spooks you. There are probably many more dogs who don't have problems with vaccines than dogs that do.
03-23-2014 11:36 AM
shepherdmom I think we blame too much on vaccines these days. Back in the 80's I worked for a vet clinic. Because of a parvo outbreak we gave our dogs the all in 1 shots every 6 months. That's what they vets were all recommending back then. She lived to be 13+ never had an allergy a day in her life. None of my dogs back then ever had any of the stuff they get today. I personally believe we have poisoned our environment.
03-23-2014 11:33 AM
SennaJ
Quote:
Originally Posted by jocoyn View Post
I am not sure there is any one smoking gun. Probably some combination of genetics, environment, food, vaccinations, insecticides, etc.

Did you dose the Benedryl properly. 1mg per pound every 8 hours? Enough to knock any human off their feet. That is 3 times a day. So a 75lb dog is getting 3 pills every 8 hours, 9 pills a day? All dogs are different but I had one with severe pyometra and the expensive antihistamine the vet prescribed was not as effective as the benedryl.

Being a minimalist for vaccines I spaced them out, etc. but do believe some are necessary.

I actually read (and I wish I kept the article) that a very varied diet in early puppyhood is one of the best ways to prevent food allergies. That is one challenge with the way many folks feed raw is that it can be very limited.
I also believe vaccines are necessary (some events / organizations require vaccination records), but plan to space them out as well. I also believe this itching problem is multifactorial, but started this thread out of a bit of frustration and looking for suggestions from others who have found beneficial treatment modalities. So thanks to you, DHau and Chip18 for suggestions I can try.
03-23-2014 09:16 AM
jocoyn I am not sure there is any one smoking gun. Probably some combination of genetics, environment, food, vaccinations, insecticides, etc.

Did you dose the Benedryl properly. 1mg per pound every 8 hours? Enough to knock any human off their feet. That is 3 times a day. So a 75lb dog is getting 3 pills every 8 hours, 9 pills a day? All dogs are different but I had one with severe pyometra and the expensive antihistamine the vet prescribed was not as effective as the benedryl.

Being a minimalist for vaccines I spaced them out, etc. but do believe some are necessary.

I actually read (and I wish I kept the article) that a very varied diet in early puppyhood is one of the best ways to prevent food allergies. That is one challenge with the way many folks feed raw is that it can be very limited.
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