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Thread: Any one else have bad dog days? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-21-2014 05:32 PM
ZoeD1217
Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
This is actually an excellent post, and I find myself wondering how often I fail in the many ways that I give advice on this board. I know that is not the point of this post -- to knock everyone who tries to help, or to expect perfection from people. But I think it can be helpful to those of us that do want to help others.
I've read a good number of posts that you've commented in and I think you're always honest and helpful. I've searched old posts for a dozen different questions I've had as opposed to making a new post every time and I enjoy reading your feedback.

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03-21-2014 05:20 PM
Bequavious
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
everything I said applied to a dog, timing , dog reactions , how to improve .

there was not one thing personal .

I have handled so many different dogs, ages, training levels, soft , hard , stubborn , compliant I think I have a good take on being able to read and give some advice on how to work things through .
I don't think anyone has doubted your expertise; I think people have doubted your ability to critique constructively. Being able to teach is more than simply having expertise in the subject. It is also the ability to communicate that knowledge clearly and compassionately.

Since you have had success with dog training, you are probably very skilled at communicating with dogs. If an individual dog growls or comes up the leash at a correction, do you blame the dog? Is the dog brushed off as too sensitive? Or is your technique altered, or perhaps your relationship with the dog is improved, so that he has a basis for understanding your corrections are not a threat.
03-21-2014 03:58 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
everything I said applied to a dog, timing , dog reactions , how to improve .

there was not one thing personal .

I have handled so many different dogs, ages, training levels, soft , hard , stubborn , compliant I think I have a good take on being able to read and give some advice on how to work things through .
When you find yourself becoming defensive, sometimes it is best to step away and reconsider from the beginning.

It really doesn't matter whether your advice is excellent, if it is given where it is not asked for, and full of pepper, it will not be well-received.

Suggesting that Merciel does not have a relationship with that dog was very personal.

Saying that if you were the judge... and then saying you don't know the first thing about how Rally is scored, is also, I don't know, unhelpful? inappropriate?
03-21-2014 03:27 PM
carmspack everything I said applied to a dog, timing , dog reactions , how to improve .

there was not one thing personal .

I have handled so many different dogs, ages, training levels, soft , hard , stubborn , compliant I think I have a good take on being able to read and give some advice on how to work things through .
03-21-2014 02:56 PM
glowingtoadfly
Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
This is actually an excellent post, and I find myself wondering how often I fail in the many ways that I give advice on this board. I know that is not the point of this post -- to knock everyone who tries to help, or to expect perfection from people. But I think it can be helpful to those of us that do want to help others.
Merciel's post is what I wanted to say..
03-21-2014 02:36 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merciel View Post
I don't, to be honest, although I would very much have liked to.

I want to preface this by saying that I very much appreciate the rest of your post.

But this thread has been bothering me, and now that my own irritation has subsided enough to allow me to think clearly about this, I want to write through my thoughts.

Here's why I don't give credit for good intentions:

(1) Someone who genuinely wants to help will look for people who want to be helped. There are no shortage of requests for advice and guidance on this forum. There are, in fact, so many of them that I hardly ever open those threads, because the need for information is so overwhelming and I don't have the energy to answer each one. But if you did want to answer them, there are endless people who'd be thrilled for the help.

Seeking out someone who didn't ask for help and pushing it on them anyway is at best rude and at worst intentional bullying.

(2) Someone who genuinely wants to help will at least attempt to phrase that advice in a way that is likely to be well-received by the listener. In writing, there's an old concept called the "sandwich rule": critical comments should be "sandwiched" between positive comments that point out good things in the work.

No one wants to listen to unrelenting negativity, and everyone has some good things in the work (or, if they are really so bad that there's absolutely nothing good to be said, why even bother critiquing it?). An effective critique partner will look for opportunities to reinforce what's good in between correcting what's wrong. Constructive praise is as important as constructive criticism.

(3) Someone who genuinely wants to help will focus on the specific issues that need to be addressed and will at least attempt to offer commentary that is constructive and focused on those issues. There's no time wasted bragging about unrelated matters.

When I post on a dog forum trying to give someone advice about a training issue, I don't open my post by saying that I scored a perfect 1600 on the SAT the first and only time I took it 15 years ago.

First, that was 15 years ago. I don't remember how to do it now and I couldn't replicate the feat if you asked me to do it tomorrow. Skills not practiced are soon lost, and god knows I haven't practiced SAT prep since I beat the test way back when in high school. Second, and more importantly, it's completely irrelevant to the question. Who cares what I scored on something 15 years ago? Does it have anything to do with the training issue? Obviously not. Therefore there's no reason to bring it up, since again: irrelevant bragging is irrelevant.

(4) Someone who genuinely wants to help does not attempt to bully the recipient of the supposedly well-meaning advice. Any negative feedback that's given will be (again) phrased constructively, with specifics and with a specific gameplan as to how to avoid that problem in the future. Not with conclusory, unhelpful labels such as "remote, mechanical, void," etc. What help does that offer? What guidance does that give? None. It is a litany of insults and not useful in the slightest. The only purpose of doing it is to offend.

(5) Someone who genuinely wants to help will focus on the issues they know how to help. If you don't know the rules or the scoring structure for Rally, why opine on that except insofar as it gives you the chance to level more insults? If you do know how to train competition heeling, why not focus on that actual issue and discuss that in depth, with a concrete step-by-step plan?

I don't presume to tell tracking people how to train their dogs, because I don't know anything about tracking. I don't try to critique bitework videos because I don't know anything about bitework. I might ask questions, but I would attempt to do so with humility and with recognition that I'm out of my area of expertise and that I have much to learn and little to say.


So, given that there was not a single signpost of good intentions anywhere in this exchange, I can only conclude that there were no actual good intentions behind those posts. Either that, or the execution was so colossally inept that I'm left wondering why, exactly, I should spend precious minutes of my life listening to the opinions of someone who expresses their thoughts so poorly.
This is actually an excellent post, and I find myself wondering how often I fail in the many ways that I give advice on this board. I know that is not the point of this post -- to knock everyone who tries to help, or to expect perfection from people. But I think it can be helpful to those of us that do want to help others.
03-21-2014 02:20 PM
LoveEcho Honestly, I think taking bad days into consideration is the best way to improve your training AND your relationship with your dog. Any number of things could change your dog's behavior/mood/whatever on any given day, just as they do with us. I think acknowledging that and figuring out what those things are is the best way to adapt.

I didn't really think about it like that with my dogs until I got my mare. She taught me that sometimes, no matter how flawless the training is and how perfect your timing... it's just not going to be there. Learning about how to act and react in those situations, so that I know what to expect and how to manage the next time she's "off", was so important. Then, I started realizing that it was the same thing with my dogs. They're dynamic, and accordingly- your expectations and relationship should be, as well. The most important lesson I have learned with training horses and training dogs is, "work with the animal you have today." If you have expectations, good or bad, based on how yesterday went... you're going to miss everything that's happening right now.
03-21-2014 01:52 PM
glowingtoadfly That's great! Skadi dug out some crunchy stuff from the neigbor's window well and has been digging holes and chewing on the windowsill. She does correct her brother for perceived misbehavior though. Misbehavior she once gleefully engaged in....
03-21-2014 01:36 PM
misslesleedavis1 Very pleased with my training session today, Tyson even healed without me hanging on to his leash. I have to buy him a new tug toy i searched for his old one and it was on the roof, kids.
03-21-2014 12:38 PM
Merciel Shoot, I'm outside the edit window.

Well, for posterity, here's some belated proof.

We good now? Because I'm about ready to let this one go.
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