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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-20-2014 03:34 PM
Baillif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merciel View Post
I think a lot of times, and not just on this board, people get so hung up on defending their One True Way (or cutting down other people who don't train the same way) that they are unwilling to notice or compliment when somebody who does things differently gets good results. And I think that's unfortunate. We all pay lip service to the concept that there are a thousand roads to Rome, so why not recognize its concrete examples?

It isn't how I would have done it, but as far as I can tell, that youtube shows a happy, willing working dog.
And if i had a dog where that method wasn't working or good for the dog I wouldn't do it either. The point is to get the behavior accurately and reliably while keeping the dog happy and motivated and if I cant get that doing things a certain way I wont keep hammering away at it to the detriment of the dog or my own sanity.

There is no one true way. Maybe for each particular dog there is. I suspect even then it would be a moving target. There is a time for silk gloves and a time for iron fists and largely I see it based on knowing the dog and some trial and error. I want a dog that looks punished when its being punished and not wanting to repeat the experience that got him there. What I don't want is a dog that is so punished it shuts down, cant continue its job.
03-20-2014 02:50 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by misslesleedavis1 View Post
I can imagine you would lose painfully and may end up concussed.
We may be a hard-headed species, but if we go about headbutting dogs, we will become a stiff-necked people.
03-20-2014 02:28 PM
misslesleedavis1
Quote:
Originally Posted by selzer View Post
Headbutt, was a joke.

I made up this eloquent post that I tried to post, when they closed that thread about headbutting a dog. The bottom line is, if you headbutt a dog, you will lose.
I can imagine you would lose painfully and may end up concussed.
03-20-2014 02:26 PM
selzer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blanketback View Post
...

One thing that stood out in the other thread was the idea that certain harsher human reactions (take your pick of punch, headbutt, etc) are accepted when dealing with certain (take your pick of hard, difficult, etc) dogs.

...
Headbutt, was a joke.

I made up this eloquent post that I tried to post, when they closed that thread about headbutting a dog. The bottom line is, if you headbutt a dog, you will lose. BTDTGTTS (but not on purpose).
03-20-2014 01:44 PM
Lilie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guardyan View Post
The presenter had me stop and here came the lesson. "Your dog didn't tell you he'd been corrected." Me: "huh?" The presenter explained that he believes in correcting the dog to the point that something about their body language says 'Oh, That wasn't right? I will try not to do that again.'
Such a simple sentence, but it makes so much sense!
03-20-2014 01:42 PM
carmspack YES

"The presenter explained that he believes in correcting the dog to the point that something about their body language says 'Oh, That wasn't right? I will try not to do that again.'

This idea has stayed with me through the years. For some dogs it can be as subtle as tone of voice and their response might be something as subtle as ears flicking back, but I want to see some small sign that says my correction was perceived and that it will do what a correction is designed to do - correct unwanted behavior. Just my two cents."

and this goes BOTH ways . A dog should also show you that your REWARD was well communicated and received .
__________________
03-20-2014 01:37 PM
Guardyan I don't have a lot of time to discuss, but would like to share an anecdote re: corrections.

Several years ago, I attended a herding seminar with a nationally known trainer. I had a working slot with Gavin - this was our first time herding together. We sat outside the ring and he watched a few runs definitely showing interest. The moment we stepped into the pen, he was ON. For those who haven't done any herding, just imagine trying to juggle four wildly moving sheep, a very lively GSD and one very nice man . . Oh, and everything is happening at 900 mph. With an audience.

Our stated objective was to get the dog circling calmly and not let him grip the sheep. We eventually got to that point, but I had to learn a lesson first. I had given several lie down commands and my dog would plop down then spring back up only to repeat an unwanted behavior (coming in too fast and attempting to grip). The presenter had me stop and here came the lesson. "Your dog didn't tell you he'd been corrected." Me: "huh?" The presenter explained that he believes in correcting the dog to the point that something about their body language says 'Oh, That wasn't right? I will try not to do that again.'

This idea has stayed with me through the years. For some dogs it can be as subtle as tone of voice and their response might be something as subtle as ears flicking back, but I want to see some small sign that says my correction was perceived and that it will do what a correction is designed to do - correct unwanted behavior. Just my two cents.
03-20-2014 01:02 PM
SunCzarina Each one teaches you something. Luther was my 4th GSD, first rescue. That dog taught me I knew NOTHING LOL.

The trainer was gold, shepherd person herself. Her mantra was 'I'm not going to train your dog, I'm going to teach you to train your dog' Otto's breeder was on her recommendation. Such as my luck, Otto was a pup when she stopped teaching to have more time taking care of her elderly mother.
03-20-2014 12:51 PM
jafo220
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunCzarina View Post
These posts all fail to articulate the dog's over all mentality, the offense and the exact physical correction.

A physical correction for one dog might be completely wrong for another dog.

Age, mentality (hardness, attitude, physical condition etc) and offense are all factors in an effective physical correction.

If you have to keep doing the same physical correction over and over and still get the same results from the dog, it's the wrong correction. Step back and think, work smarter not harder.

For example, we had a rescue that was 2 when we got him. Luther grew up in a frat house and thought it was okay to put people in his mouth. He liked fore arms in particular. My husband tried every strong man tactic from punching him in the head to backing him against a wall to TRYING to pin him with an alpha roll. It went on for months with my husband having purple forearms.

Luther bit me once, the second day we had him. It was playful, he was excited and I stopped it. Long story short, Luther went into training, we bonded, he would put my arm in his mouth but he never exerted pressure on me again. He still had the tendency to WANT to put people in his mouth.

The right correction for Luther didn't come to me in a cloud of magic fairy dust, it took a while to figure out that a correction for Luther was 1. verbal 2. he didn't listen, scruff him. Scruffing him was the physical correction. Eventually my hard headed husband learned this technique with the hard headed dog and stopped getting bit.

Then there's Otto, who's also a punk. Otto and Luther are so much alike in many ways it's almost like their the same dog. Except Otto has a neck made of leather and scruffing him does nothing except hurt my fingers.

When Otto was a teenage GSD, I should have kept him tethered more but life happens, you can't always do everything that's the right thing. There were times I had to put a towel over his eyes to break him from his cycle of insanity. Other times I had to grab him by the sides of his face and shake him - physical correction.

One time, he was young, maybe 5 or 6 months, he ran into my 3 year old daughters room and I went behind him to find the puppy had my daughter by the footie PJs, pulling her around the room. She was laughing and he thought this was great fun. Aus. Didn't listen, I pulled his jaws apart, sat him down hard, got in his face and said NO BITES. He knew what I meant, we'd been through months of don't bite my pant legs and don't pull my socks off. Then the child also got a lecture that's not going to be funny when he's 90lbs.

When Otto was learning to heel,I had to snap pop his prong collar so hard he'd yelp just to get his attention. He had to go to heeling CLASS for like a year, nothing any of the trainers had to offer worked. I finally found my own solution, music off my cell phone, it reminds him I'm holding the leash here. I don't think he feels the prong collar unless I crank it up.

He's 6 in May and not a walk goes by that he doesn't need a reminder not to walk me. Just one word that Otto knows will be followed by a prong pop if he doesn't listen.

The word is the correction, if he doesn't listen it's followed by a physical correction with the prong collar. LOL lately though it's followed by my 14 month old female crossing over in front of me and biting his face. She's also issuing him a physical correction in dog language - wish the last bitch had done that to him as a pup.


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Thats kind of why I raised the question. When using that reference, maybe an example should be inserted along with it so that it's clear to other posters just what the situation is. This includes the dogs tendancy and the reason for the handlers type of physical correction. It should not be "generalized" or lumped together because dogs are different, situations are different. My mind goes back to a dog that may be "hard" and a handler who is "soft" or just inexperienced like myself that would benefit from an explination of the situation or hypothetical situation and it's corrective measure.

I have a pretty good trainer in this area. But there may be others who don't.
03-20-2014 11:59 AM
SunCzarina
Quote:
Originally Posted by jafo220 View Post
What, exactly, is an acceptable "physical" correction? What action is taking place by the handler to correct an overly aggressive action by the dog? So is it jabbing the dog, yanking the dog, grabbing the dog? What? I see the word physical mentioned several times and have yet to see anyone elaborate as to just what they are refering to as a "physical" correction. Again, sorry if I missed it, please point me in that direction.
These posts all fail to articulate the dog's over all mentality, the offense and the exact physical correction.

A physical correction for one dog might be completely wrong for another dog.

Age, mentality (hardness, attitude, physical condition etc) and offense are all factors in an effective physical correction.

If you have to keep doing the same physical correction over and over and still get the same results from the dog, it's the wrong correction. Step back and think, work smarter not harder.

For example, we had a rescue that was 2 when we got him. Luther grew up in a frat house and thought it was okay to put people in his mouth. He liked fore arms in particular. My husband tried every strong man tactic from punching him in the head to backing him against a wall to TRYING to pin him with an alpha roll. It went on for months with my husband having purple forearms.

Luther bit me once, the second day we had him. It was playful, he was excited and I stopped it. Long story short, Luther went into training, we bonded, he would put my arm in his mouth but he never exerted pressure on me again. He still had the tendency to WANT to put people in his mouth.

The right correction for Luther didn't come to me in a cloud of magic fairy dust, it took a while to figure out that a correction for Luther was 1. verbal 2. he didn't listen, scruff him. Scruffing him was the physical correction. Eventually my hard headed husband learned this technique with the hard headed dog and stopped getting bit.

Then there's Otto, who's also a punk. Otto and Luther are so much alike in many ways it's almost like their the same dog. Except Otto has a neck made of leather and scruffing him does nothing except hurt my fingers.

When Otto was a teenage GSD, I should have kept him tethered more but life happens, you can't always do everything that's the right thing. There were times I had to put a towel over his eyes to break him from his cycle of insanity. Other times I had to grab him by the sides of his face and shake him - physical correction.

One time, he was young, maybe 5 or 6 months, he ran into my 3 year old daughters room and I went behind him to find the puppy had my daughter by the footie PJs, pulling her around the room. She was laughing and he thought this was great fun. Aus. Didn't listen, I pulled his jaws apart, sat him down hard, got in his face and said NO BITES. He knew what I meant, we'd been through months of don't bite my pant legs and don't pull my socks off. Then the child also got a lecture that's not going to be funny when he's 90lbs.

When Otto was learning to heel,I had to snap pop his prong collar so hard he'd yelp just to get his attention. He had to go to heeling CLASS for like a year, nothing any of the trainers had to offer worked. I finally found my own solution, music off my cell phone, it reminds him I'm holding the leash here. I don't think he feels the prong collar unless I crank it up.

He's 6 in May and not a walk goes by that he doesn't need a reminder not to walk me. Just one word that Otto knows will be followed by a prong pop if he doesn't listen.

The word is the correction, if he doesn't listen it's followed by a physical correction with the prong collar. LOL lately though it's followed by my 14 month old female crossing over in front of me and biting his face. She's also issuing him a physical correction in dog language - wish the last bitch had done that to him as a pup.
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