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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-08-2014 11:33 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by glowingtoadfly View Post
I am currently considering my options and trying to keep an open mind
Good stuff.
03-08-2014 11:23 PM
glowingtoadfly I am currently considering my options and trying to keep an open mind
03-08-2014 11:10 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by glowingtoadfly View Post
Yes!
So you support a ballanced training approach? That includes corrections.

David I have no experience with detection I can see how conflict could cause issues with a dog that needs to take more initiative in the work. Thanks for the insight.
03-08-2014 08:21 PM
glowingtoadfly
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
Where I see this conflict manifest itself is primarily in detection work. Some dogs require a lot of positive training to teach them it is OK to be obedient to odor and blow off the handler. They are anticipating a correction whenever they fail to comply with the handler. This is a problem as you never want the dog to ignore odor to comply with the handler outside of an emergency recall or down.

Other dogs simply check out with the handler once they are worked off leash and know that they can not receive a correction at distance. Getting these dogs to work with the handler take a lot of control over training situations to only allow the dog to get rewarded when taking guidance from the handler.

You have to teach them that they have a say in the work, but it is also rewarding to work with the handler. It requires a balance in training that swings greatly one way or another with different dogs out of the same system, depending on the dog.

IME, dogs that have less conflict with the handler, and also have a learning system instilled that allows for positive and negative communication, creates a learning situation where the dog is not afraid to try new things. Problem solving is a big part of detection and a dog that is in conflict with trying new things is much harder to expose to new situations successfully.

I understand that most of these situations will not present themselves in most working and sport situations. Working in SAR, herding or long range detection poses a different set of criteria to be successful than most people need out of the dog.
Yes!
03-08-2014 08:17 PM
David Winners
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
Ill agree with you there. I think that vid Alice posted in the other place is interesting and a good example of what your talking about. Dog is grabbed by the collar and carried/placed by the handler on the target part of the suit. Choke correction for getting dirty. All at 8 months but the dog never comes out of drive. Also clearly a bit of conflict..
Where I see this conflict manifest itself is primarily in detection work. Some dogs require a lot of positive training to teach them it is OK to be obedient to odor and blow off the handler. They are anticipating a correction whenever they fail to comply with the handler. This is a problem as you never want the dog to ignore odor to comply with the handler outside of an emergency recall or down.

Other dogs simply check out with the handler once they are worked off leash and know that they can not receive a correction at distance. Getting these dogs to work with the handler take a lot of control over training situations to only allow the dog to get rewarded when taking guidance from the handler.

You have to teach them that they have a say in the work, but it is also rewarding to work with the handler. It requires a balance in training that swings greatly one way or another with different dogs out of the same system, depending on the dog.

IME, dogs that have less conflict with the handler, and also have a learning system instilled that allows for positive and negative communication, creates a learning situation where the dog is not afraid to try new things. Problem solving is a big part of detection and a dog that is in conflict with trying new things is much harder to expose to new situations successfully.

I understand that most of these situations will not present themselves in most working and sport situations. Working in SAR, herding or long range detection poses a different set of criteria to be successful than most people need out of the dog.
03-08-2014 06:39 PM
carmspack we have neighbours on ski doos and they take target practice in the back acres -- plus fireworks display --- I KNOW I have no issues there .
the problem with recordings is that you don't have the same resonance and air splitting - changes in air pressure -- like the drums that you feel in your chest , or the ear popping of a thunder storm


Yes , plants, more than a few years in landscape and green houses including Edwards and Allen Gardens.
Put those seedlings out too early without exposure - you may as well throw away the tray and start again.
you see people anxious to get tomatoes out asap and get growth and a crop , be no further ahead , and possibly behind those that are patient and wait that extra two weeks .

Patience .
03-08-2014 06:33 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by carmspack View Post
pressure and stress in training --
be careful with a young dog that you don't break the dog out of ambition to get to a place quickly.

as a breeder the pups I have are pre-stressed. In the whelping pen they are moved into different temperature zones . They get little frustrations . Life is not made easy -- they may have to weave through a configuration of boxes to get to the food . They experience resistance , push back , following or being called to come in total dark , noise stimulation. My being abrupt or louder in vocalization so that sound of conflict is home-turf . Being visited and played with and then walked away from while still in full play mode gives them some social tension or stress . They get used to me coming and me going .
They have gentle increments of pressure and frustration which helps build the ability to handle greater stress down the line .

Look at it from the plant growers experience. Young plants are tender . If you were to grow them exclusively under ideal hot house conditions and then put them outside you would have some high ratio kill off . Plants would wither in the heat , the cool, they burn with the increased light and UV rays . The slightest wind would flatten them . So you take the potted plant and you put it out in shade , in a protected area for a short while , then bring in. Over a period of time you can increase the sun exposure and the duration of time being left out. The plant will become more sturdy and not so wind vulnerable.

this is called hardening off Hardening Off Plants - Acclimating and Preparing Seedlings for Transplant by Hardening Them Off

same with young animals and animals in training . The more considerate you are in giving that pressure and stress the better the result . The animal becoming harder and more self confident better able to blow through pressure and strength.
Everything has a stress and strain threshold -- whether an engineered material or a living material , (trees in the ice storm this winter) or an emotional limitation.


.
Excellent analogy i did not know that about plants, makes sense. Mike mentioned that he plays gun shot and other sounds for his pups in the whelping box if I recall correctly. He claims to never have had an issue with sound sensitivity.
03-08-2014 06:26 PM
Blitzkrieg1
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Winners View Post
I would say that they use drive to get the dogs to perform and remove all options but the correct one using compulsion. IME, some of these dogs have conflict with the handler when they move to a new handler. I wouldn't call it fear / submission at all, and when they are adults, you aren't going to force them to do much. They won't put up with it.

I think that many people don't understand that training using aversives is communication when used properly. They set the dog up to perform correctly and remove all other options. The dogs trained in this way can take the pressure. If they weren't successful, they wouldn't train this way. KNPV produces some great dogs. I just don't like the conflict you have to overcome to work with them as a handler.

David Winners
Ill agree with you there. I think that vid Alice posted in the other place is interesting and a good example of what your talking about. Dog is grabbed by the collar and carried/placed by the handler on the target part of the suit. Choke correction for getting dirty. All at 8 months but the dog never comes out of drive. Also clearly a bit of conflict..
03-08-2014 06:22 PM
carmspack pressure and stress in training --
be careful with a young dog that you don't break the dog out of ambition to get to a place quickly.

as a breeder the pups I have are pre-stressed. In the whelping pen they are moved into different temperature zones . They get little frustrations . Life is not made easy -- they may have to weave through a configuration of boxes to get to the food . They experience resistance , push back , following or being called to come in total dark , noise stimulation. My being abrupt or louder in vocalization so that sound of conflict is home-turf . Being visited and played with and then walked away from while still in full play mode gives them some social tension or stress . They get used to me coming and me going .
They have gentle increments of pressure and frustration which helps build the ability to handle greater stress down the line .

Look at it from the plant growers experience. Young plants are tender . If you were to grow them exclusively under ideal hot house conditions and then put them outside you would have some high ratio kill off . Plants would wither in the heat , the cool, they burn with the increased light and UV rays . The slightest wind would flatten them . So you take the potted plant and you put it out in shade , in a protected area for a short while , then bring in. Over a period of time you can increase the sun exposure and the duration of time being left out. The plant will become more sturdy and not so wind vulnerable.

this is called hardening off Hardening Off Plants - Acclimating and Preparing Seedlings for Transplant by Hardening Them Off

same with young animals and animals in training . The more considerate you are in giving that pressure and stress the better the result . The animal becoming harder and more self confident better able to blow through pressure and strength.
Everything has a stress and strain threshold -- whether an engineered material or a living material , (trees in the ice storm this winter) or an emotional limitation.


.
03-08-2014 06:01 PM
David Winners
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzkrieg1 View Post
Im not disagreeing with you per say but many would say that the methods those handlers use cause fear and submission which is how they "force" the dogs to perform. I dont agree with it but thats what they would say.
I would say that they use drive to get the dogs to perform and remove all options but the correct one using compulsion. IME, some of these dogs have conflict with the handler when they move to a new handler. I wouldn't call it fear / submission at all, and when they are adults, you aren't going to force them to do much. They won't put up with it.

I think that many people don't understand that training using aversives is communication when used properly. They set the dog up to perform correctly and remove all other options. The dogs trained in this way can take the pressure. If they weren't successful, they wouldn't train this way. KNPV produces some great dogs. I just don't like the conflict you have to overcome to work with them as a handler.

David Winners
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