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Thread: Protein Levels and a Biologically Appropriate Diet Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-19-2014 11:44 AM
cwf
Quote:
Originally Posted by jocoyn View Post
You are not comparing apples and apples because you are including the WATER - you would have to compare them either on a dry matter basis or with the dry food hydrated. This shows a much higher protein% content in dried whole prey animals than kibbles etc.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf
Well, yes, of course. There is a calculation based on water content to arrive at the correct protein and fat percentages when comparing canned (wet) and dry matter. As well, kibble isn't made of only dried whole meat, so kibble would be expected to be a lesser protein level than dred whole prey.

I was trying to figure out if *perhaps* the quality of protein in fresh meat (be it raw or cooked) is somehow more physiologically useable to the canid, compared to the dried protein meals found in kibbles, and thus less fresh protein would be required. Just musing.

I've decided to homecook, rather than change from Acana kibble to canned food, though, but thank you for your input.
02-17-2014 01:19 PM
jocoyn
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwf View Post
A comparative DNA analysis would supply that information. It hasn't been suggested that dogs seek out grains when the option for meat is available. I don't think anyone is claiming that dogs run into corn fields for a meal.

Again, sooooo curious how posters have jumped on that one line in my original post, to the exclusion of the larger, fundamental question therein. Never an unoccupied soapbox, is there?!
You are not comparing apples and apples because you are including the WATER - you would have to compare them either on a dry matter basis or with the dry food hydrated. This shows a much higher protein% content in dried whole prey animals than kibbles etc.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/Who...nal02May29.pdf
02-17-2014 01:18 PM
RubyTuesday
Quote:
Nancy - if you can see the seeds in the poop then they didn't get digested and so didn't offer ANY nutritional value.
It's possible that what you're seeing are the empty hulls & the nutrient laden kernal has been digested, ie emptied. Birds have actually starved when their owners didn't realize what they were seeing in the feeding bowls were empty hulls rather than whole seeds.
02-17-2014 01:12 PM
RubyTuesday Kibble is a highly manipulated food. The processing it undergoes renders it partially digested so that the ingredients can't really be compared to fresh, intact ingredients. This processing makes it suited, even if not ideal, for canine diets, wild or domestic.

Carnivorous isn't necessarily a 0%/100% option. Many animals are considerbly greater than 0% & significantly less than 100%. Felines are 'obligate carnivores' & tend towards the 100% extreme. Ruminants toward the 0%. Canines, given the opportunity, tend towards the 100% extreme but not to the extent that cats do. I wouldn't consider dogs 'omnivores' in the way that bears or humans are, but they are very opportunistic carnivores & in the absence of meat, at least in the short term, will eat berries & plant matter. Far from 'ideal' but survival in the wild rarely has the luxury of the 'ideal'.

That the domestic dog's diet isn't necessariy 'ideal' doesn't bother me. What does concern me is that the simplest, cheapest dietary improvement is so often ignored...Avoid obesity. Do not over feed. Worry more about fat dogs than thin dogs. Recommendations on the bag are often excessive even for active dogs. (Not surprising given that dog food companies would much prefer selling more kibble rather than less).
02-17-2014 12:42 PM
Lucy Dog
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwf View Post
Again, sooooo curious how posters have jumped on that one line in my original post, to the exclusion of the larger, fundamental question therein. Never an unoccupied soapbox, is there?!
Because you said it. If you didn't want it talked about, you shouldn't have brought it up. You did and it was commented on. That's how discussions go.

Sorry the thread didn't go exactly the way you planned, but do you have to keep taking shots and making snide remarks because of it? Would you like an apology from everyone because you're not hearing exactly what you wanted?

Grow up and keep it moving. If you don't like it, start another thread on exactly what you'd like to discuss. Some people just get way too sensitive when threads don't go exactly as they've planned. It's ridiculous.
02-17-2014 12:36 PM
SuperG Not that it answers any questions since this topic creates a new question for me....could this evolved domesticated dog survive/sustain....or better yet thrive on a diet strictly of grains? Or could it survive/sustain or better yet thrive on a diet of derived strictly from prey?

I understand that many might suggest a homogenization of both would suffice but this is not the question.

I do recall reading a thread where the poster was feeding their dog a vegan diet and it must apparently suffice, I suppose the protein source was plant based...not that I would ever do that.

I am in the camp that domesticated dogs are becoming more of an omnivore as well as opportunistic due to the changes created by humans. I do, however have no doubts whatsoever, that if humans no longer existed and dogs were left to their own devices they most certainly would go back to their roots and simply be carnivores 100%.

SuperG
02-17-2014 11:35 AM
cwf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seer View Post
Im not sure how a study could determine that without a test subject from 10-20k years ago. Dogs love a nice decayed rotten stomach full of partially digested food. So it would be my guess that in that form (or similarly) they could always derive nutritional value. We may have added a tiny stretch to the ability, but it would be my guess, it was always there.

My dogs only run into a corn/wheat field to eat..... When chasing meat
A comparative DNA analysis would supply that information. It hasn't been suggested that dogs seek out grains when the option for meat is available. I don't think anyone is claiming that dogs run into corn fields for a meal.

Again, sooooo curious how posters have jumped on that one line in my original post, to the exclusion of the larger, fundamental question therein. Never an unoccupied soapbox, is there?!
02-17-2014 10:45 AM
Seer
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwf View Post
GreenCo, there are studies showing that the domestic dog has indeed developed the capacity to derive nutritional value from certain grains.

Im not sure how a study could determine that without a test subject from 10-20k years ago. Dogs love a nice decayed rotten stomach full of partially digested food. So it would be my guess that in that form (or similarly) they could always derive nutritional value. We may have added a tiny stretch to the ability, but it would be my guess, it was always there.

My dogs only run into a corn/wheat field to eat..... When chasing meat
02-16-2014 02:20 PM
cwf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lauri & The Gang View Post
Nancy - if you can see the seeds in the poop then they didn't get digested and so didn't offer ANY nutritional value.

CWF - maybe domestic dogs have changed a bit but it's only because we have FORCED them to change due to what we feed them.

Commercial kibble is a relatively NEW way of feeding dogs. It was the brainchild of people in the grain industry as a means to SELL (profit off of) the leftovers after the grains are processed for humans.

Dogs may be able to get nutrients from grains but only if those grains are heavily processed prior to being fed to the dogs. Dogs are not PHYSIOLOGICALLY capable of breaking down grains in their whole state - their bodies are not designed by NATURE to do that.
Lauri, I am going to agree with you on most of the above, and disagree with you on the physiological capability issue. But, that's not what this thread is supposed to be about.
02-16-2014 02:10 PM
Lauri & The Gang Nancy - if you can see the seeds in the poop then they didn't get digested and so didn't offer ANY nutritional value.

CWF - maybe domestic dogs have changed a bit but it's only because we have FORCED them to change due to what we feed them.

Commercial kibble is a relatively NEW way of feeding dogs. It was the brainchild of people in the grain industry as a means to SELL (profit off of) the leftovers after the grains are processed for humans.

Dogs may be able to get nutrients from grains but only if those grains are heavily processed prior to being fed to the dogs. Dogs are not PHYSIOLOGICALLY capable of breaking down grains in their whole state - their bodies are not designed by NATURE to do that.
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