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Thread: E-collar using Lou Castle's methods Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
03-16-2014 04:12 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
A dogs drive to avoid discomfort in my experience flattens drive in general
If you're training individual behaviors, I have no doubt that this is true. I'm not doing this, and my dogs understand things about the Ecollar that yours do not, so my use of the Ecollar does not have this effect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
that is whilst I agree it works like any other tools of aversion, the dog's natural motivations to desire something pleasurable and of value to the dog increases drive intensity
I'll disagree. A "dog's natural motivations to desire something pleasurable and of value to the dog increases" only his desire to get that pleasurable 'thing.' It has no effect on the dog's drive. You don't build a dog's prey drive with treats, praise, or the like. But you may mean something else. Please clarify.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
no different to how the William Koehler trained dogs although pin point accurate lost OB trials to dogs who had motivation to work over dogs behaving to avoid correction.
That's more a shift in the ethos of judges, than a comment on the use of aversives. However, Koehler training (and I'm not advocating it, nor do I use it) is still in use and still successful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
If a dog has enough drive and a "good" GSD will have enough drive to motivate with rewards of pleasure and value, you don't need any tools of correction or a need for the dog to avoid unpleasantness as the basis of it's training structure.
You keep NOT getting the point. The idea behind using the Ecollar in basic OB is not JUST to get the behavior. It's to teach the dog, things that I've already described. The way that most people use the tool, apparently the way that you use it, only as a remote correction has the effect, as you've told us of, "flatten[ing] drive." I teach the dog about the stim before doing this work and I don't get the drive flattening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
The Ecollar is a great tool and is one in my toolbox used often on some dogs
I use it on just about every dog that I train.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
but it's not a tool I use by default to lay foundation training and is more reserved for problematic behaviour is where the Ecollar excels as a remote trainer especially in off leash scenarios where leash corrections aren't normally possible.
I'm not surprised. This is how many people, if not most, use the tool, when a problem arises. You may fix the problem but you do so at a cost, as you've told us. You've got a probem. In order to fix it, you create another problem, "drive flattening." Now you have ANOTHER problem to fix. I call this "building a mountain and then having to climb over it." I see no need to do it and I don't. It doesn't happen with my methods because the dog understand the stim.

If you start with basic training with the Ecollar, you rarely get any of these problems and if you do, the Ecollar is used to fix it and it does not have the adverse effects that you have told us that you get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
I ask this question:
If a dog trained in release for reward basis displays the correct behaviour, it need's an Ecollar to achieve what?
I think that you're talking about the release of a bite, but I'm not sure. Please clarify and while you're at it, tell us what kind of work you do with dogs.
03-16-2014 07:48 AM
Deno
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouCastle View Post
Deno you just made my entire day! Thanks.
You are more than welcome.
03-16-2014 02:34 AM
Rexy
Quote:
I also combine working in drive with the Ecollar, using the dog's natural motivations with his desire to avoid discomfort, to guide him into what I need from him.

A dogs drive to avoid discomfort in my experience flattens drive in general, that is whilst I agree it works like any other tools of aversion, the dog's natural motivations to desire something pleasurable and of value to the dog increases drive intensity, no different to how the William Koehler trained dogs although pin point accurate lost OB trials to dogs who had motivation to work over dogs behaving to avoid correction.

If a dog has enough drive and a "good" GSD will have enough drive to motivate with rewards of pleasure and value, you don't need any tools of correction or a need for the dog to avoid unpleasantness as the basis of it's training structure.

The Ecollar is a great tool and is one in my toolbox used often on some dogs, but it's not a tool I use by default to lay foundation training and is more reserved for problematic behaviour is where the Ecollar excels as a remote trainer especially in off leash scenarios where leash corrections aren't normally possible.

I ask this question:
If a dog trained in release for reward basis displays the correct behaviour, it need's an Ecollar to achieve what?
03-15-2014 01:20 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
The Ecollar has a wide range of settings.....I have a Dogtra collar with 127 settings, but as the dogs arousal level continually changes in the moment when using an Ecollar for escape training, it's a task to get the right level to suit the moment,
I use the same Ecollar for my work. But I don't have any trouble finding the dog's working level even when his "arousal level continually changes." Many people find the dog's working level and leave the Ecollar set there. I don't. I'm continually on the dial, moving it as the dog's needs change, and his arousal level shifts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
then having said that, a dog with varying ranges of arousal are usually dogs of good drive levels who work better for rewards of value.....dog working in drive for reward is far more motivated in my experience than a dog working to shut off a collar stim.
I also combine working in drive with the Ecollar, using the dog's natural motivations with his desire to avoid discomfort, to guide him into what I need from him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
The Ecollar is an excellent tool for extinguishing unwanted behaviours used in a corrective fashion
MANY people use the tool as you describe, only for "extinguishing unwanted behaviors," But that's quite limiting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
but unless you training dud GSD's lacking drive, I don't see a place for it in obedience training over motivational reward based methods.
I DO see a place for it in OB training over "motivational reward based methods. " I don't know what you’re doing in dogs but if it's training individual behaviors as in pet work or most forms of competition, then using "motivational reward based methods" probably give acceptable results with some dogs.

I'm working with dogs that search for a living in SAR and LE work. There, training individual behaviors gives results that are usually acceptable but they're nowhere near what can be done with methods that utilize the dog's drives directly. The Ecollar allows me to get cooperation without conflict and to do so with great precision. But it's not the kind of precision that comes with hammering dogs with the Ecollar (or any other tool for that matter) it's the kind of precision that having the dog in the correct drive brings.

It seems that you keep missing the point that my use of the Ecollar for OB training is NOT merely to get the OB behavior. It's far more than that. I teach the behavior with the Ecollar, even if the dog already knows the behavior, so that the dog learns the meaning of the stim. This is far more than, "if you don't comply, you will be uncomfortable." Methods that only use the Ecollar for, as you said earlier, "remote corrections to sharpen up command responses" do not do this.
03-15-2014 01:19 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deno View Post
[/b] Lou, the light bulb just came on. [/b] The part about the dog thinking the stim comes from the cosmos is the key. I debated with myself on the pros & cons of this and I came to the wrong conclusion. This now confounds me, since in my favorite dog training book of all time, Lew Burke stressed the importance of the dog not associating you with the prong collar. I see the simple fact now, that your method would provide better control to all human pack members.
Deno you just made my entire day! Thanks.
03-15-2014 12:12 PM
Rexy
Quote:
Originally Posted by LouCastle View Post
That's why quality Ecollars have many levels. So that they can be tuned to the level of distraction that the dog is feeling at the moment.



But what if the dog does not have "enough drive?"

There's nothing wrong with just using an Ecollar "for remote correction to sharpen up command responses." In fact that's the way that many, if not most people use the tool. But it's very limiting in what can be accomplished with the tool.

Using the tool to teach OB with, even if the dog already knows the behaviors, teaches him several things, in addition to teaching the behaviors. One is that when the stim starts, he's done something wrong. Another is that when the stim stops he's done something right. And perhaps most important, he learns that he's in control of BOTH, when the stim starts and when it stops. Dogs trained with my method think that the stim came from the environment and/or from their behavior. This gives reliability, even when the handler is not present, that you don't get without a lot of work, if the dog thinks that the handler delivered the correction.
The Ecollar has a wide range of settings.....I have a Dogtra collar with 127 settings, but as the dogs arousal level continually changes in the moment when using an Ecollar for escape training, it's a task to get the right level to suit the moment, then having said that, a dog with varying ranges of arousal are usually dogs of good drive levels who work better for rewards of value.....dog working in drive for reward is far more motivated in my experience than a dog working to shut off a collar stim.

The Ecollar is an excellent tool for extinguishing unwanted behaviours used in a corrective fashion, but unless you training dud GSD's lacking drive, I don't see a place for it in obedience training over motivational reward based methods.
03-15-2014 11:12 AM
Deno Lou, the light bulb just came on. The part about the dog thinking the stim comes from the cosmos is the key. I debated with myself on the pros & cons of this and I came to the wrong conclusion. This now confounds me, since in my favorite dog training book of all time, Lew Burke stressed the importance of the dog not associating you with the prong collar. I see the simple fact now, that your method would provide better control to all human pack members.
03-14-2014 07:29 PM
LouCastle
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
Problem is, the working level of the dog varies dramatically depending on the level of arousal the dog's at in the moment unless Ecollar training is done in a sterile environment.
That's why quality Ecollars have many levels. So that they can be tuned to the level of distraction that the dog is feeling at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rexy View Post
If the dog has enough drive, I don't see the need for Ecollars at all other than using it for remote correction to sharpen up command responses.
But what if the dog does not have "enough drive?"

There's nothing wrong with just using an Ecollar "for remote correction to sharpen up command responses." In fact that's the way that many, if not most people use the tool. But it's very limiting in what can be accomplished with the tool.

Using the tool to teach OB with, even if the dog already knows the behaviors, teaches him several things, in addition to teaching the behaviors. One is that when the stim starts, he's done something wrong. Another is that when the stim stops he's done something right. And perhaps most important, he learns that he's in control of BOTH, when the stim starts and when it stops. Dogs trained with my method think that the stim came from the environment and/or from their behavior. This gives reliability, even when the handler is not present, that you don't get without a lot of work, if the dog thinks that the handler delivered the correction.
03-14-2014 05:38 PM
Rexy
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deno View Post
Lou,

Thank you for your input, I understand what you are saying about

finding the working level for your dog
and guiding it to wanted

behavior and or away from certain acts before they start. I am a

simple pragmatic man, hence my method, while what I did worked

fantastic for Dex, I see the downside to it with the wrong dog.

There is no doubt a prudent person would be wise to become

familiar with your insight and methods.

Deno
Problem is, the working level of the dog varies dramatically depending on the level of arousal the dog's at in the moment unless Ecollar training is done in a sterile environment. If the dog has enough drive, I don't see the need for Ecollars at all other than using it for remote correction to sharpen up command responses.
03-03-2014 05:36 PM
Deno Lou,

Thank you for your input, I understand what you are saying about

finding the working level for your dog and guiding it to wanted

behavior and or away from certain acts before they start. I am a

simple pragmatic man, hence my method, while what I did worked

fantastic for Dex, I see the downside to it with the wrong dog.

There is no doubt a prudent person would be wise to become

familiar with your insight and methods.

Deno
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