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Thread: Is personal protection dog training really what I want? Reply to Thread
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Topic Review (Newest First)
02-01-2014 03:29 AM
David Winners
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Taggart View Post
You are talking about Schutz sports. Of course, there is no aggression involved in prey work. The dog experiences only positive emotions, he must hold like a tick, and the decoy may use a peculiar method to distract him: he might leave the bat and stroke the dog on his head with his right hand "Good boy!" The bat strokes are for distraction, not for causing pain, because everything is a game.
Unlike Schutzhund training PP training drives negative emotions out of the dog, a real anger, because the dog's experiencing a real pain, and the PP decoy's bat is not that rather soft flip used in Schutzhund, which reminds more of a piece of a rubber hose than a real weapon.
I am talking about the foundation of bitework that most young dogs go through at clubs before being worked in defensive drive. It doesn't involve being pitted against boarded dogs, suffocation, rubber hoses, Area 51 or aluminum foil. It involves developing drives and barking, teaching behaviors and targeting, and showing the dog the rules of the game.

After such training, the dog is not any more defensive of people than when it started. My point being that, IMO, this type of training does not make a dog more likely to bite a person outside of the game that is training.

Training real patrol dogs bitework is incredibly simple. You challenge them and either they fight or they don't. They have the nerves and the drive to fight a man, or they are single purpose dogs. That training is about control and outing (sometimes). Adding pain to it is just to test the dog. IMO, there is no reason to continue any painful work once the dog has shown it will hang in there for the long haul. Some people train for targeting the weapon arm, which adds a bit of training, but for the most part, it's pretty simple. It's about the dog.
02-01-2014 02:26 AM
OriginalWacky
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Taggart View Post
reminds more of a piece of a rubber hose than a real weapon.
If you don't think that a rubber hose can be a weapon, then you've obviously never been hit with one.
01-31-2014 04:15 PM
erfunhouse OP-- I am of the belief that dogs don't need to be "trained" to protect or deter...it's just what they've done since the dawn of time.

My first shepherd, Metro, was a rescue. Who knows what kind of life he lived before us (judging from how we got him, I am assuming some unsuspecting person tied him to a pole and walked into a store somewhere, and the "rescuer" thought he was abandoned...) but he bonded to us tightly, me in particular because we literally spent all day together as he went to work with me daily.

One morning before work I stopped at a 7-11 for coffee and parked right in front of the doors. On the way out a man much larger than myself blocked the entrance/exit and wouldn't let me out. Leering and making off sided comments. Metro noticed that I was very uncomfortable and trying to get around the guy, and went BERSERK barking and lunging against the windshield of my car causing it to rock all over the place. The man immediately noticed and apologized and moved out of my way.

There were two or three other incidences where we were walking at night and I was in la-la land not paying attention. I would feel the leash go tense and the dog would stop moving, only to look up and see someone walking towards me...the hair would raise on my neck and I would notice the dog was already in a tense stand off with the man approaching. The man would cross the street and wouldn't look back.

This dog could be approached by ANYONE. Through the years we had MANY people cross the street to pet him, coo over him, and generally discuss what a great dog he was. If you had ill intentions however, he knew it and you weren't going to get close to us.

One night while my husband was out working patrol, I was woken up to a low long growl. Metro was a grumbler. The dog was NEVER quiet...always moaning, groaning, grumbling or talking about something. This growl made my blood run cold. I went to the living to see what he was growling out and as soon as I walked out, I heard the door knob jiggle and twist. Someone was trying to open my door. The menacing growl got louder and his body posture got tighter and lower. I texted my husband (whose division bordered our street) and he flew over to clear our back yard. The dog settled well before my husband made it to our house, the only thing I can figure was the dog managed to growl loud enough.

Dogs know. They just do. There was also a time where the dog knew I had a situation under control and didn't need back up, so he laid on the couch, much to my amusement. I was selling a couch on craigslist. I had a man coming to buy it, but he was three hours late. When another buyer offered to come get it, I said sure. The original buyer showed up after I had already sold the couch and proceeded to stand on my door step and scream obscenities at me, scaring my MIL and my children. I stood there, yelled back, called 911 and gave a full description to the operator, all while this man was standing there. I wasn't frightened. I was angry. My dog knew that momma bear was good to go, and didn't bother himself any.
01-31-2014 03:59 PM
Serbrider
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilie View Post
We all learn from our previous dogs!

Well, I was 12 when I got her... Didn't know a whole lot. and she's such a gosh darn smart and independent dog too. Would figure out how to escape any backyard fence... Just so she could sit in front of the gate or at the front door.

Wish I had known more when I got her, and my dad didn't do all of the negative overly dominant reinforcement, because she could have been AWESOME. Well, the past is the past, and I wouldn't trade her for all the money in the world, anti-social and stubborn as she is.


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01-31-2014 03:56 PM
Baillif
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Taggart View Post
What patrol dogs out there biting people, where?
In my country which you claim to know so much about when it comes to dogs
01-31-2014 03:55 PM
Lilie
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serbrider View Post
Thanks. and that's what I want. Even though she isn't extremely well trained, my current older dog has that loyalty, and I know she'll try and deter anyone, even if she won't actually defend if it comes down to it. And the more I think about it, that's the kind of relationship I want with this new puppy, with better training and socialization.


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We all learn from our previous dogs!
01-31-2014 03:50 PM
Serbrider
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilie View Post
OP - Develope a strong relationship with your new dog. Take it training classes, your instructor can guide you regarding any future plans with training your dog. You may not create a dog that can jump a person and ripe out their windpipe, but you'll create a loyal, well trained dog that will be your partner for this rest of it's life.



Thanks. and that's what I want. Even though she isn't extremely well trained, my current older dog has that loyalty, and I know she'll try and deter anyone, even if she won't actually defend if it comes down to it. And the more I think about it, that's the kind of relationship I want with this new puppy, with better training and socialization.


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01-31-2014 03:42 PM
Lilie OP - Develope a strong relationship with your new dog. Take it training classes, your instructor can guide you regarding any future plans with training your dog. You may not create a dog that can jump a person and ripe out their windpipe, but you'll create a loyal, well trained dog that will be your partner for this rest of it's life.
01-31-2014 02:50 PM
David Taggart
Quote:
many patrol dogs out there biting people
What patrol dogs out there biting people, where?
01-31-2014 02:44 PM
bill Wow! Okay I tried the not feeding for three days! Lost three fingers! Tried the buttocks bite" won't be able too sit for a month! Forget the throat thing!
Lol seriously tho.I trained my first p.p.d. to go for the arm with the weapon! Did this by using two hidden sleeves!
P.s. don't. Pick up hitchhiker on side of road! Bill
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